Constantly Improving: Yung Pueblo on Self-Work, Communication, & The Future of Relationships

[00:00:00] Like we have to understand that this is a special historic moment. There are more people in therapy than ever before. There are more people meditating than ever before. There are people using such a wide range of modalities. And to me, it's awe-inspiring and that we have all these huge challenges that we face as a humanity that we're also given these tools that we can deeply heal our minds so that we can continue trying to change the world.

[00:00:30] into a better place, but at the same time we're simultaneously changing ourselves.

[00:00:40] Yung Pueblo, author, but so many other things. I feel like you've become like a beacon of hope for people through your words.

[00:00:49] So kind.

[00:00:50] Oh, I mean, you're everywhere.

[00:00:52] Yeah, things have grown a lot over the past eight years of starting off on Instagram. But yeah, thank you. I'm so happy to be here and that we're making time to hang out.

[00:01:02] I know. I'm so happy. That's one thing I really like about our generation and I don't know if it's Instagram or what, but you know, before it felt like only like actors and actresses and singers were getting big. Like if you were on TV. Now, it's like our favorite authors and poets are...

[00:01:51] Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[00:01:53] It's like people are deciding collectively, you know, with what gets out there and then like, then institutions have no other choice but to accept and support people that they might not have in the first place.

[00:02:07] Because when I wrote my first manuscript, I knew I was like, I'm not taking this to any publisher because they're going to be like, hell no. They're like, they're not going to...

[00:02:14] Wait, why did you think they would say hell no?

[00:02:16] Because this, I mean, it was like 2016, you know, and there was, I think this whole world of like wellness and personal transformation was obviously inside of individuals, but it wasn't quite mature and popular yet.

[00:02:32] But so my thought, you know, and I could have been wrong because I never took the manuscript to publishers.

[00:02:38] But my thought was like, I don't think they're going to dig this. Let me just self-publish and see what happens.

[00:02:43] Because if people can connect with this message, then the institutions will come later. And that's what ended up happening.

[00:02:51] Wow. Did you see yourself as an artist from the beginning?

[00:02:53] No, no. It was only after I started meditating that like, it almost felt like that, like the plumbing for creativity was totally blocked.

[00:03:03] And when I started meditating, it's like, you know, I was able to release it and it started flowing because it wasn't there before.

[00:03:11] Wow. And so you self-published, but then you also put out your poetry online.

[00:03:19] And that's what, that's what made it take off.

[00:03:22] Yeah. So I started releasing the poetry online in like 2014 and 2015, it started picking up speed.

[00:03:30] I started putting in more so in images and I was really inspired by the first wave of Instagram writers,

[00:03:37] particularly like Rupi Kaur and RM Drake, who were like the first ones to like really just get out there and,

[00:03:44] you know, put their stuff in black and white.

[00:03:46] And I realized I was like, oh, like, you know, I have a different message, but I should try this format,

[00:03:52] this black and white format. And, um, and when I started putting my like poems and the thoughts in that format,

[00:03:58] things started taking off. So I always think of myself as like a second generation Instagram writer.

[00:04:03] And, um, because it wasn't until 2017, I self-published and then 2018, that same self-published book,

[00:04:09] a revised and expanded edition came out that was in bookstores.

[00:04:13] So it took a while, like that whole first three year period was me just like honing my voice,

[00:04:19] you know, figuring out like what topics, particularly personal transformation,

[00:04:22] like what in that field feels really important to me to, to explore.

[00:04:27] It's so interesting because I feel like we're in an age where so many people

[00:04:31] are now choosing to be artists and express themselves and not take like the traditional

[00:04:38] route that maybe their, you know, their culture or parents would have told them,

[00:04:42] Hey, like, this is what you need to do. Totally. Um, and it's interesting that you see yourself as

[00:04:47] second generation because I, I, I feel like I see your name as much as I see those two,

[00:04:51] those other names. Um, but I feel like people expect these days, like the second they put their

[00:05:00] stuff out there. Like, why isn't it going viral? I know. Yeah, I know. And it's, it just doesn't

[00:05:05] work like that. It's like, it has to be so many small wins over a long period of time. Cause I think

[00:05:12] the journey from, from, you know, 500 followers to a hundred thousand followers, it took like

[00:05:22] four years, three or four years. Like it took a long time to get there. And then it picked up speed

[00:05:27] over time. Cause things sort of grow exponentially like that. Um, but it's interesting. I, when I was

[00:05:34] there, like in, in that zone in 2016, 2017, there were a lot of like amazing writers and, you know,

[00:05:43] some people like I thought were like, well, I'm like, wow, this person is so talented. Like I love

[00:05:47] their writing even more than I love my own. And then they just disappear. They stop. And the ones who

[00:05:52] ended up, ended up, you know, continuing were the ones who just, they got to the top or like whatever

[00:05:58] the top, they got notoriety from just never stopping. And I think that's a key, key thing.

[00:06:04] Yeah. I think even when you plateau, you can't take that as a failure and just time to evolve.

[00:06:09] Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's, that's the thing about social media is it makes you feel like

[00:06:14] you need that instant gratification of likes, but that's not the thing. So what was the thing for

[00:06:20] you that kept you going? Because it wasn't, it was initially, it was not the constant validation

[00:06:25] because again, you were growing into being, you know, being who you are. But I think I had the

[00:06:32] objective of like, like I did want to release my own book and, um, I wanted to put together a

[00:06:39] manuscript, but I knew it would take time to like, you know, sort of write for an extended period of

[00:06:46] time, figure out which ones are the best pieces, which ones actually make sense.

[00:06:50] Cause that was one thing like that. I'm really grateful for that earlier time

[00:06:55] was you can write a bunch of stuff in your room, you know, by yourself. But like when you put it

[00:07:00] out there, you're like, Oh, okay. It makes sense. Like people are actually understanding what I'm

[00:07:04] talking about. And that's what social media sort of like speeds up that process for writers

[00:07:11] because you can actually, you know, get that immediate feedback. And with that said,

[00:07:15] it's a double-edged sword. Cause if you're just attached to the feedback and you're like,

[00:07:20] then looking for what people like, and then you only write what people like, then you sort of start

[00:07:25] losing your creativity pretty quickly. But a little bit of that will at least help you see,

[00:07:30] okay, this makes sense. Let me keep going. Let me keep playing with these words and figure out,

[00:07:35] you know, how I can combine this message. And at the time I was so interested in minimalism. I was like,

[00:07:40] how can I bring this message forward about these things that I'm learning and bring that minimalistic

[00:07:45] aspect to it? But I think what drove me to keep going was like, like I wanted to get this,

[00:07:52] like at least one book done. And by the time I got there, I was like, Oh, this is working. And I,

[00:07:56] you know, as I keep meditating, I'm like, I'm learning more. I have more to say.

[00:08:00] Yeah. Do you think that the meditation was the most valuable and impactful thing along your

[00:08:07] healing journey? Because I hear you talk about it a lot. I hear the word healing a lot, which a lot

[00:08:12] with people are trying to do. Sure. Definitely. Was it, was it the meditation mostly, or was it the

[00:08:18] meditation and other things? And if so, what were those other things? It was definitely like 95%

[00:08:26] meditation for sure. Like I think without it, I wouldn't have been able to make those other

[00:08:32] behavioral changes in my daily life because the meditating isn't just like, Oh, you know, having

[00:08:38] peace or building peace in this one moment. It like changed every facet of literally all of my

[00:08:45] relationships, my relationship with my wife, my relationship with my parents, my family,

[00:08:49] with work, with creativity, like even the idea of like, you know, Oh, I should reflect openly.

[00:08:55] Right. Cause I feel like that's what really, what young Pueblo is is like. I'm considering these

[00:08:59] topics and then I put them out there and people can agree with them or not, but they're also

[00:09:04] reflecting to whether they agree with them or not. And, um, it feels like none of literally none of

[00:09:10] that stuff would have happened without the meditating. And then, you know, through meditating,

[00:09:13] I felt like my capacity expanded and I was able to do more. And then I could see, I was like, Oh,

[00:09:19] you know, you got to treat your body better. You got to start, you know, exercising more. You got

[00:09:23] to change the way you're, um, you know, what you put into your body, what you eat and whatnot. And

[00:09:28] those things were, you know, critical to the healing as well. But I think without the meditating,

[00:09:33] I wouldn't have had the mental strength to like actually get it done.

[00:09:36] Did you get married before you started meditating?

[00:09:38] No, after, after it was after I did my first silent 10 day course. So my wife and I, we've been

[00:09:44] together for, uh, six, 15, 16 years. Um, when she was 18 and I was 19, we met in college.

[00:09:54] And for the first six years of our relationship, um, it was a bumpy, bumpy road. Like it almost felt

[00:10:00] like we were in this hurricane together and we just like, we didn't know how to love well. Right.

[00:10:07] We, there was a connection there, but we didn't know how to take care of it. And, um, but when,

[00:10:11] when we, when I did that first silent 10 day course, we were actually on a break.

[00:10:16] Like, and in that moment, it felt like pretty, like a fork in the road. Like what's going to

[00:10:22] happen? Are we going to stay together or are we going to go our separate ways? You know,

[00:10:26] it's been hard being together because we didn't know how to be together, but like,

[00:10:30] are we going to try again? And after I finished meditating, um, it just became so clear, you know,

[00:10:37] like I, I knew I was like, I was like, I'm kidding myself right now. Like there's no,

[00:10:42] like I, I need, I want to be with this person forever. And I, um, was in Portland, Oregon at

[00:10:47] the time when I came back to Boston, I, you know, I asked her to marry me like two weeks after that.

[00:10:52] And then we were engaged for three years and then got married. Oh my God. Yeah. Wow. So you got that

[00:10:58] from the meditation retreat, even that? Yeah. From the meditation retreat and just from like spending

[00:11:02] time out there, you know, like in, in the farm and like being, cause I was staying in a farm in

[00:11:07] Portland. And, um, and I remember just like going out there to seek clarity about how I was going to

[00:11:14] move forward on the East coast. And I definitely got the clarity. And I think the combination of

[00:11:19] meditating, being with different people and just seeing that this person that I love so much,

[00:11:24] but I'm learning how to actually love, um, you know, that I want to treat her better and I want to

[00:11:30] just show up in better ways for her and for myself too. I love that. And I want to explore

[00:11:35] the how to love thing because something that I've been noticing as I do all these interviews and,

[00:11:42] you know, I'm on the internet all the time, like consuming and, you know,

[00:11:46] consuming and curating stuff that I see. Um, I think there's so much power in defining words.

[00:11:54] I never thought that that was a big thing. I never understood why people were like, well,

[00:11:58] let's redefine this and let's, let's define that. And then I started, I started reading more and more

[00:12:05] about this and have you heard of like bell hooks? Yeah, of course. And I started like seeing the

[00:12:11] way that she would define love or I would listen to someone define friendship in, in a completely

[00:12:17] different way than I had ever heard it. And I'm like, there's so much power in defining what these

[00:12:23] words actually are. And then acting on those definitions because we assume, we assume lust is

[00:12:30] love sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. We assume like attract, just attraction is love. We assume pain is love.

[00:12:39] If you listen to a lot of popular music, a lot of it is actually like, I mean, you're really talking

[00:12:45] about pain and longing and missing someone that's not love. You know what I mean? So, so what did you

[00:12:52] learn about how to love that was so different than the way you were doing it before?

[00:12:56] Oh, that's such a nice question. Um, I think it took me a long time to understand that clarity is love

[00:13:04] and understanding is love. Like that took a long time because when like arguments are natural,

[00:13:11] right? To human beings and very imperfect egos will rub up against each other and there will be

[00:13:17] friction. How do you handle that friction? And before it would be like a battle for dominance,

[00:13:22] like who dominates the narrative, who has to apologize, who is totally wrong. And the other

[00:13:27] person is a hundred percent right. And we would, you know, battle like that, but there was no winner.

[00:13:34] Like we were both losing maneuvering in that manner. And as we started meditating and building self

[00:13:40] awareness, which was like the big game changer was like, I could not see myself. She could not see

[00:13:45] herself. So all there was, was blame. Like you did this, you made me feel like that, blah, blah, blah.

[00:13:51] Um, and what ended up switching to and what it is now is like, when these difficult moments arise,

[00:14:00] we try our best to like not fall into that battle. And instead it's like, I want to understand how this

[00:14:07] series of events moved for you. Right? Like, how did you feel as all this was happening? And we'll take

[00:14:14] turns. Like, this is, this is my side of the story. This was how things happened from my perspective.

[00:14:19] And if I'm genuinely able to understand her perspective, then it makes it a lot easier to

[00:14:25] just let it go and be like, Oh, I see what happened. Right. And vice versa. And now that we're

[00:14:30] seeking to understand as the primary goal, it's so much easier to love each other and be like, Oh,

[00:14:36] okay, we're cool. Now let's figure out a middle path so we can move forward.

[00:14:39] Wow. So initially it was the blame thing, seeking to be right. And then finding a person to blame

[00:14:48] second way of loving, just I'm here to understand your side, both people coming in with that energy.

[00:14:54] And then how do we move forward? Yeah. And the challenge in that is like,

[00:14:58] is it can't be done without selfless listening and selfless listening is possible, but it's something

[00:15:04] you almost have to like, you have to really train yourself to be able to hear another person's story

[00:15:10] to like, take it in, in the most compassionate way possible, where you're literally trying to

[00:15:16] put yourself in their shoes and seeing things move according to how it happened in their own mind

[00:15:22] as best as you can. And that also involves in the midst of hearing this story, you're not projecting

[00:15:29] onto it. You're not like throwing your own stuff. You're not interrupting. You're just like doing your

[00:15:34] best to take it all in. And then they give you the gift of trying to do the same. And obviously it

[00:15:41] sounds ideal and it's possible, but it takes work. You got to keep trying.

[00:15:46] A hundred percent. Um, it's funny. I think about this stuff all the time on every, every podcast that

[00:15:54] I do, I hear a guest say something and I'm like, man, it would, it would be so cool if in schools when

[00:16:02] we were younger or at home, um, this, this would be part of the curriculum. That's like my biggest

[00:16:10] thought every time I sit down. And to me that right there is such a powerful tool that I wish people

[00:16:18] taught us when we were younger because not, none of us learned any of this stuff.

[00:16:22] No, but I think though, that people in our generation are becoming the teachers, the parents,

[00:16:28] the principals, like the ones who are like designing these new school systems. And so my hope is that

[00:16:36] like sucks that we didn't get it, but like hopefully we can give it to the next generation to figure out

[00:16:42] like, you know, how, how do we like build some emotional intelligence? Like as we're, you know,

[00:16:48] moving from five, six, seven years old and, you know, trying to intentionally treat each other with

[00:16:53] gentleness and all of that. I think it's, um, I have more hope than I used to because the more that

[00:16:58] I'm seeing, I see this convergence happening where like, to me, it's awe inspiring that all these

[00:17:06] techniques, like, or, you know, all these like Eastern modalities of different forms of meditation,

[00:17:12] all these Western modalities of therapy and psychiatry, there's like so much stuff. And now

[00:17:17] that the world has become globalized, you can just like whatever major city you're in, in the world,

[00:17:23] you can just like type in, like, how do I deal with my anxiety? You're going to get mad options.

[00:17:27] You're going to get tons of different options. And what's your task is to find something that meets

[00:17:33] you where you're at. Something that you're like, Oh, I want to try this. I'm going to check this out.

[00:17:36] And something that just sort of connects with your own capacity, because you know, every technique is

[00:17:43] not for every person. So some people are really going to like therapy. Other people are really

[00:17:47] going to like meditation or other things that are out there so much out there. So you just need to find

[00:17:52] something that gives you real results, something that connects with your intuition.

[00:17:55] And that shows you tangible changes in your behavior.

[00:17:59] Amen. We're so aligned right there. Let me tell you why. My favorite thing that you just said was,

[00:18:06] it's different for everybody.

[00:18:08] For sure.

[00:18:09] Because there's no one size fits all.

[00:18:11] Yeah.

[00:18:12] There isn't. And I think the world has been trained to think the very one way or the other.

[00:18:19] You know, obviously someone like you, you have like tremendous, you provide tremendous hope for

[00:18:24] people. You have it too, but you provide, you provide that where the world can be so polarizing,

[00:18:30] choose this side, choose that side. And the more I get to know people, the more I realize like there

[00:18:37] is no one way. Yeah.

[00:18:38] There is no one way. And the most powerful thing that you can do, because we're all as human beings,

[00:18:45] we're just all solving problems throughout life. It's just a series of problems and we're all

[00:18:49] just going to end up, and they're all different. Everyone's life is so different. And it is very

[00:18:55] powerful that you can just like type something in on Google. I think what's even more powerful

[00:18:59] is that you can find somebody whose entire life is devoted to whatever problem you have

[00:19:07] that's like the thing that consumes all your energy. So whether it's like a mental health problem,

[00:19:12] a physical health problem, a relational problem, going through a divorce, you know, being single

[00:19:18] until later in life, whatever the thing is, the problem that you have, there are people who are

[00:19:24] going to make you feel like shit about it. And we see that all the time in like politics, or there are

[00:19:30] people that are going to provide that hope for you because they've already tackled that problem,

[00:19:35] or they're on a journey tackling that problem. And if we can just get people to find the leaders

[00:19:40] in whatever they're looking for, I think we'll just have so much less pain in the world.

[00:19:46] I love that you highlighted that because it's like, it's so true. Like there are some like,

[00:19:50] you will find the person who like knows how to fix lower back issues. Yeah, if you go if you're out

[00:19:57] there or like somebody really knows the ankle or like what you know, like, or someone's like a

[00:20:02] fantastic, you know, like has been meditating for 50 years in this particular tradition that you want

[00:20:07] to learn more about. And there are all these people out there who've been spent dedicating their lives.

[00:20:12] But I feel like it's so important to understand that like, people need different tools, because

[00:20:19] we've accumulated different reactions throughout our time. So like every time we react, it makes an

[00:20:25] imprint on the mind. And all of this is accumulating and making your emotional history is sort of the

[00:20:30] pains and hurt or even trauma that you've encountered, like it accumulates inside of you.

[00:20:36] So this shapes the human mind in particular ways. And I think different people connect with different

[00:20:44] types of techniques, because they need something that's like, oh, this fits, like where I'm at,

[00:20:50] and the way my mind is shaped right now. And, you know, I think some techniques will like,

[00:20:56] connect with people who've been like, really highly traumatized or something like that, where,

[00:21:01] you know, they don't even they may not even want to meditate, because they can't even close their

[00:21:04] eyes, because it just feels way too intense. So they mean something else. So I think it's,

[00:21:09] it gives me a lot of hope to just know, like, okay, there's a lot out there. So, you know,

[00:21:15] I think a lot of us have to almost try that, like, personal transformation, spiritual buffet to just

[00:21:20] check a few things out. And then you're like, Okay, I like this one.

[00:21:23] Okay, I love that spiritual buffet.

[00:21:25] Yeah, yeah.

[00:21:26] Did you just coin that term right now?

[00:21:27] I mean, I think other people have probably said it too. But spirit, it's like, yeah,

[00:21:31] I love it.

[00:21:32] Right? Like people go and they try different things. They're like, Oh, I'm gonna try a little bit of

[00:21:35] this, try these psychedelics, try these, you know, this form of therapy, try that meditation,

[00:21:40] and you're like, Oh, found it. Yeah, it's good. Okay, that's, that's, yeah, that's the way to do it.

[00:21:45] I put out this tweet the other day about how I went to a life coach, who I paid,

[00:21:52] I just wrote that I paid 250 an hour, I'm sure to some people, that was a lot.

[00:21:58] Worth it for me. Yeah. And then and I just wrote that I was on, like, a call with her,

[00:22:05] this was during the pandemic. And I told this story to her a few times, you know, when you're

[00:22:10] usually your mind is usually on a loop, you're complaining about the same thing over and over

[00:22:14] again, it's a very, it's a very human thing. And I told her a story, maybe like two or three times,

[00:22:21] and she quickly noticed it. And she goes, Nicole, you're paying me $250 an hour. Do you want to tell

[00:22:28] me this story again? Or, or do you want to figure out an action plan? And how we're going to move

[00:22:35] forward? And I put the tweet up about that. And I can't tell you how many different reactions to

[00:22:42] that one tweet I got. I was in therapy on and off. Since I was 12 years old. And when I was in therapy,

[00:22:50] I did have somebody that would listen to me like that. And I would every week, I would say the same

[00:22:54] thing, like, my parents, this the guy I'm dating that, you know, at school, it's like this, my

[00:22:59] friends are that. And I was on a loop for years and years, and I didn't notice it. Wow. And she

[00:23:05] would sit there and let me process things. And I'm sure, in some respects, that was helpful,

[00:23:09] because I had somebody to talk to. And it was nice that my insurance was paying. But

[00:23:15] I remember when I was in my 20s, and I told that the therapist that I had at the time,

[00:23:23] I'm like, yeah, you know, I have, I'm making like, 200 more a month. And she, she would be like,

[00:23:31] that's great. But she wasn't like, okay, well, how can we make more? How can we, you know, take you in

[00:23:36] another direction where you're a little more financially stable. And it was great that,

[00:23:41] you know, she taught me how to be grateful in that moment. But at the same time, like,

[00:23:45] I wasn't being pushed to be more of what I am. And so for the time being, that was cool. But when I

[00:23:50] got the life coach, my entire life changed. Amazing. Everything. And so, so it goes back to what

[00:23:55] you're saying of there is no one size fits all. Totally, totally. I want to go back to your

[00:24:03] relationship with your wife. Yes. But also relationships in general, because I feel like

[00:24:09] that's a really hard one for people. I mean, it's even hard for me. I'm not in a relationship now.

[00:24:15] And when I was younger, and if you would have asked me when I was 21, I would have told you like,

[00:24:21] I'll be married by 25 and like start having kids and whatever. And now the more I talk to people,

[00:24:28] I see how hard it is for everybody, not just to get in a relationship, to maintain a good

[00:24:34] relationship. Yes. Because who are we kidding? We see the divorce rates. And then we see how many

[00:24:42] people stay in marriages that aren't necessarily healthy, but because nobody taught us. Right.

[00:24:48] Nobody taught us how to maintain a good relationship and, you know, to be a little self-aware and all

[00:24:55] these things that you and I are talking about. So what, what do you feel like helps your relationship

[00:25:02] with your wife thrive? And how does that relationship help you evolve into more of who you are?

[00:25:08] Oh my gosh. Cause I see, I see where I need to work so clearly when I'm with her. I think, um,

[00:25:15] the main tool that we've put into place, like on a daily basis, and this is, it's super simple. It's,

[00:25:23] um, basically we, we've come to realize that a lot of our points of arguments, when we'll

[00:25:29] sort of fight each other unnecessarily or get upset, a lot of that is before the narrative even

[00:25:38] begins, one of us doesn't feel good, right? Where one of us will either be more tired that day or just

[00:25:46] like, you know, have anxiety coming up or have some stress coming up from work or whatnot. And what

[00:25:53] we've done is we'll check in with each other. You know, the first time is when we wake up is like

[00:26:00] check in, like, how do you feel? You know, sometimes you wake up and you're like, literally will feel

[00:26:05] still heavy or tired or, or you don't feel particularly great. Or you feel like your

[00:26:09] capacity is a little lower that day. So we let each other know. We're like, yeah, I don't, you know,

[00:26:13] feeling pretty good or not feeling that great, feeling heavy. Maybe I'm feeling a little sick,

[00:26:18] you know, but when we check in like that and we check in about where we are in our emotional range,

[00:26:24] it lets you know how you're feeling. So you're admitting to yourself, you're like, oh, this is,

[00:26:28] this is, you know, I'm not going to try to push it away or evade the feeling and act like everything

[00:26:32] is okay. I'm letting myself know how I'm currently feeling. My partner also knows how I'm feeling.

[00:26:37] And when we both have that information, we can then sort of figure out how we can support each

[00:26:43] other through the day. And we'll also check in about that a few times and it becomes really like

[00:26:50] so helpful because the mind is so quick and it's so quick to not, it doesn't want to accept one that,

[00:26:59] oh, temporarily you just don't feel good right now. It's like, why don't I feel good? It's definitely

[00:27:04] not my fault. It's your fault. How can I make this your fault? And I mean, we had this one moment

[00:27:09] that was like, it just shines in my memory so brightly because I'm like sitting on my laptop

[00:27:14] and Sarah was in the other room and she was working on her laptop and she comes in and she was like,

[00:27:22] I literally just spent the last three hours trying to figure out why this feeling I have inside me is

[00:27:30] your fault. And she was like, and because I had no reason, my mind kept trying to go backwards in time

[00:27:38] and further back in time trying to find some reason. And she was like, it literally has nothing

[00:27:43] to do with you. And we were both like laughing, like, whoa. And I'm like, dude, I know my mind tries

[00:27:48] to do the same thing all the time. And sometimes granted, there's definitely sometimes when we make

[00:27:53] mistakes and it's our fault, you know, it's like, we need, you know, I need to apologize or she

[00:27:57] apologizes or whatnot. But a lot of the time in these emotions will sort of heat themselves up

[00:28:05] into unnecessary arguments and just checking in about where we are and knowing like, yeah,

[00:28:12] I don't feel that good. And she's aware of it or she doesn't feel that good. And I'm aware of it.

[00:28:16] It's like, yeah, well, let me, let me try to step up for you. Let me try to like, you know,

[00:28:20] support you in a way that you want to be supported or directly ask you like, you know, what can I do

[00:28:25] anything to help out? And having that, you know, extra information, it has made a world of a

[00:28:32] difference in our relationship because now we know. Oh my God. Again, this is, this is more

[00:28:39] stuff I wish I would have learned earlier. Um, I feel like as someone who it's not that you just

[00:28:47] have so many fans, like you're, I feel like you're, you're the type of person that you like read the

[00:28:52] comments and you know what's going on and you, you know, you answer your inbox when you can,

[00:28:56] I'm sure. And, and you, you know, you go out there and you do public like live events.

[00:29:02] Yeah. I do events. I try to answer when I can, but it's rare. Honestly, it's like,

[00:29:05] there's so much and I've been trying to, there was a while where I was trying to answer a lot

[00:29:11] and I realized I'm like, I have to take care of my own mental health. Like if I spend all day in

[00:29:17] the DMs or answering every single email possible, like I'm just going to be exhausted and I will

[00:29:22] create nothing new. So I've been having to like very intentionally balance out, like,

[00:29:28] you know, when I can open up a dialogue or not, because it's just like, it can be all consuming.

[00:29:34] Oh, a hundred percent. I mean, you know, Oh, I know. I'm just, I think my point in saying that was,

[00:29:40] I feel like you're pretty aware of what's going on in the world in terms of like what people are

[00:29:45] struggling with because even, even what you write, you said it too, you put it out there and you see

[00:29:51] what people relate to. What is it that you think that, that people are looking for or struggling

[00:29:57] with the most because our, you know, of course we're, we're all doing the healing work and

[00:30:04] a lot of us are not everyone, but there's so much that we struggle with, but I feel like

[00:30:11] there's so many points of connection. Yeah. Like when I, I thought for the longest time,

[00:30:16] like I was the only one that was struggling with intimacy. Why can't I connect with someone

[00:30:24] and bond and get into a relationship? Then I started talking to other people around my age,

[00:30:30] older, younger, and I find out everybody feels this way. Yeah. So what, what are some things that

[00:30:36] you feel like are plaguing us as humanity? I think the big one, and it feels like this is part of the

[00:30:45] sort of macro conversation that's happening now. Cause I really feel like, right. Like what is

[00:30:49] social media? It's human humanity having a conversation with itself and you'll find trends.

[00:30:56] Like when you look at it over time and like, you know, right. So I feel like there's a, like when I

[00:31:02] started writing online, 2015 to 2017, like a lot of the conversation was around self-love. Like,

[00:31:08] what is it? Is it valuable? What does it look like in my life? People had so many different

[00:31:12] perspectives and you know, that, that transformed into like letting go that, and then that opened up

[00:31:18] the world of like boundaries and you know, it's, it's, you sort of, you see these ebbs and flows

[00:31:23] of topics. And I think the topic that I kind of see now and it's growing is how much this,

[00:31:31] the insidiousness of perfection, right? This attachment to perfection, how we want it not only in our

[00:31:37] relationships, but in our everyday lives. And I think some of the, I've noticed some of the more

[00:31:42] popular posts that I'll put up are like, you know, realizing that like every day is not going to be a

[00:31:47] good day in your relationship. You know, every day is not going to be a good day in your life. Like

[00:31:50] it doesn't matter how much work you've done. Like you doing that deep inner work of healing yourself,

[00:31:57] of letting go, of building new habits. Like that doesn't mean that the challenges stop.

[00:32:02] That just means that you know how to process difficulty, right? So when difficult moments arise,

[00:32:08] like you understand, this is a difficult moment. It's not going to last forever. Let me see how

[00:32:12] skillfully I can handle it. And the same thing in a relationship. So, but we come across that

[00:32:19] difficulty with perfection because like we crave it. Like we rather nothing bad happen. We rather

[00:32:25] everything be pleasant all the time. But when you realize like, what is that more deeply, right?

[00:32:31] It's not just an attachment to perfection. You have, you're basically have a bad relationship with

[00:32:37] change, with impermanence. And I find that so much of the suffering that we have in our minds

[00:32:43] is because we have a combative relationship with impermanence. And a lot of the work that I do when

[00:32:49] I'm meditating right for myself is like, how much more deeply can I embrace change? Because if I can

[00:32:55] embrace change, then I'll be able to flow with the ups and downs instead of getting tossed around.

[00:33:01] Yeah. I think, I think being resilient is the thing is you have to just accept that inevitably bad

[00:33:10] things will happen and you have to become stronger, not wish for an easier life or wish for everything

[00:33:16] to be amazing. It's not going to be possible. It's not. Yeah. It's not. Um, here's an interesting one

[00:33:22] because I'm sure you've also been seeing there's a rise in popularity of this term manifestation.

[00:33:29] Oh yeah. It's right. It's yep. It's everywhere. It's everywhere. It doesn't go away. Yeah. And in

[00:33:35] some, in some respects, I feel like, I feel like it is a real thing. I feel like you can manifest

[00:33:41] great things for you. It's like, I don't know when, when you look at your career, for example, like

[00:33:46] you worked hard, you manifested this. Yeah. Yeah. You know, but you said it right there. I

[00:33:52] worked hard and I manifested it. Right. So I think of the mind as like the mind, it's a, it's a,

[00:34:00] it's a GPS, right? It's a Google maps. You have to point, you have to put in the address, right?

[00:34:06] Where are you going? And you have, and that's basically your goals. Like what are your goals?

[00:34:10] What are you trying to accomplish? But it doesn't stop there, right? You need to actually drive to get

[00:34:16] there. You need to, you know, follow the instructions or in that case in everyday life,

[00:34:21] it's like figuring out what's the best way to get there and building your own plan. But without

[00:34:26] execution, it's just not going to happen. And that's one thing where, um, you know, it's not

[00:34:31] just about visualizing. It's about knowing where you want to go and, and doing, taking the steps to

[00:34:37] get there. Cause it has to move together. Cause I really believe the universe is one of cause and

[00:34:42] effect, right? Like whatever input you put in, you'll get that output. And the more of that

[00:34:48] positive input that you put in, eventually you'll get some sort of positive output. And I think some

[00:34:53] people, you know, when they think about, you know, karma and things like that, cause that's really

[00:34:59] what cause and effect is, is, um, you know, they'll, they'll have those challenging moments where like

[00:35:04] they were particularly kind to one person and gave so much to one person and that person just bounced,

[00:35:09] right. They were gone. They weren't able to return, weren't able to reciprocate.

[00:35:13] But sometimes the thing that you gave, it just won't come back to you from the same person.

[00:35:20] Yeah. It won't come back to you in the same way because there's definitely a lot of people that

[00:35:23] I've helped or have like trying to be kind to. And then it was a momentary thing and there's no like,

[00:35:30] oh, you owe me, but it's like, oh, but this other person that I never expected was helping me all

[00:35:34] along. Like, you know, like I was, I talked to Simon Sinek the other day. I had no idea that he

[00:35:40] like loves Clarity and Connection and he'd been giving it away as a gift. He like gave it to Maria

[00:35:45] Shriver. And now Maria Shriver is like a good friend. I had no idea that she learned about me

[00:35:49] through him, you know, but it's like, it's like, wow, you know, you helped me so much by passing

[00:35:54] the book to one person. And, and it's nice to know that, you know, it's like a, it's like a

[00:36:01] beautiful mystery, but all you have to do is like, once you understand that fundamental law,

[00:36:05] you know, try to do, try to be kind, like be kind. And even if it doesn't come back to you from the

[00:36:10] person you want it to come back to, like double down on being kind because it's, it's going to work

[00:36:14] out in the long run. I've, I, I also really believe in, um, you know, from the, so in the Vipassana

[00:36:20] meditation tradition that I'm a part of, like the teacher, Senguenka talks about like attracting

[00:36:24] like, and I really truly believe that, you know, you open that door to authenticity, to vulnerability,

[00:36:31] people like that will come. And it's so nice to like, I don't know, just see the different sides

[00:36:39] of yourself reflected in the people that are coming your way. Right. Cause not everyone's going to be

[00:36:43] the same. There's going to be other people that will bring out another part of you. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:36:47] And you need to have a, you know, uh, an emotionally diverse friend group that's like,

[00:36:52] you know, showing you different things. But, um, I think that's so powerful. It's been a,

[00:36:56] it's been a, a balance of like, you know, wanting to, you know, serve people with these reflections,

[00:37:07] but also like making sure that I'm not oversharing. Cause that's one thing that a lot of people who are

[00:37:13] like, you know, creators or influencers of different type or artists. And cause I feel like some things,

[00:37:19] um, you need to keep to yourself, keep to yourself. And it's just like, what kinds of without,

[00:37:24] without, you know, I don't want you to feel like you're oversharing here. Yeah. I think I saw a trend

[00:37:29] with a lot of, um, a lot of friends who are out there who, you know, have audiences where they

[00:37:36] were showing so much of their lives. They, they would like film every breakfast, every lunch,

[00:37:41] like, you know, now I'm going here and now I'm with this person. And it's like, it's like,

[00:37:45] you're basically have your own reality TV show that you're filming. And in that moment I was like,

[00:37:51] Oh, I would hate that. Like, I really would not dig that, you know? So I feel that in a lot of my

[00:37:57] writing, I'm probably sharing like 20% or 25% of what I'm thinking about. You know, there's a lot of

[00:38:04] other things I'm thinking about, but they're not like, like, you know, I'm also thinking about

[00:38:06] history and economics. I'm thinking about like things that I'm not an expert to write about,

[00:38:11] you know? I don't, I mean, I don't think of myself as an expert in any way, but in topics of

[00:38:15] personal transformation or relationships, those feel like fair game for everyone. Because like,

[00:38:20] if you think about what is important for a human being, it's like water, food, relationships,

[00:38:26] you know, like it's a, it's a top thing for us. So I think it's been a balance of like

[00:38:33] being vulnerable in the writing, but at the same time, like, you know, I want to also have a normal

[00:38:39] daily life. Are you completely open with your wife about everything though? Oh, for sure.

[00:38:45] Yeah. Okay. Ours is like, that's, it's just totally open. Like in a way where, I mean,

[00:38:52] in a way that feels good to the both of us that like works really well.

[00:38:56] Was it like that from the beginning? And I'll tell you why I'm asking this.

[00:38:59] Yeah, I do want to know. Um, it was, it wasn't like that in the beginning. In the beginning,

[00:39:03] it was like, it grew over time, but there was a sense where like the bond that we had between the

[00:39:08] two of us felt so clear and unavoidable, even in the beginning, because we like, we became immediate,

[00:39:16] like best friends for three months. And then we realized that were deeper feelings.

[00:39:21] And the problem was that we didn't know how to hold the relationship. We didn't know how to take

[00:39:25] care of the relationship or ourselves. So there was struggle there, but the connection was undeniable.

[00:39:30] Like we, we just, it was hard to be away from each other. And it wasn't until we started meditating

[00:39:36] that it really started making sense. And we were like, Oh, this is why we have such a deep bond.

[00:39:42] Like we've been on this meditation journey. And like, I don't, I don't remember anything,

[00:39:46] you know, about past lives and whatnot, but the experience that I have of loving my wife,

[00:39:52] being near her, it's like, there's so much familiarity there to me. That's like,

[00:39:56] we've done this before. Like, this is not the first goal around, you know? And people can sometimes feel

[00:40:00] that with friends, with like parents and all that. But, but I think we, we've learned that

[00:40:07] lies in particular create distance and like they create distance, not just between you and yourself,

[00:40:14] but the person that you're, you know, trying to be so close with the person that you're building a

[00:40:19] home with. So where we try to be as honest as possible. Okay. Here's why I asked that because

[00:40:26] you know, dating culture in particular, there's, there's a big difference between the advice that

[00:40:33] we get for relationships and the advice that we get for dating. Because in relationships,

[00:40:39] you're learning how to build that bond, strengthen that bond, set boundaries, but be vulnerable,

[00:40:45] all this stuff. In dating, the goal is attraction. So the messages that you get there, especially like

[00:40:52] if you remember the books that came out when you and I were younger, like why men love bitches and like,

[00:40:59] and like the game. Yeah. Which I'm very close friends with Neil Strauss. Yeah. And when I asked

[00:41:06] him about that book, he's like, I mean, that's really a book about insecurity. Yeah. And he is not like,

[00:41:12] he is one of the most powerful inner child relationship. Uh, I don't know, writers, coaches,

[00:41:20] leaders that nobody even knows the impact that he has on, on men today. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but I remember

[00:41:28] that book, men would use it as like a guide for like how to get laid. Oh my gosh. And he wasn't even

[00:41:35] trying to do that. If you read to the end of the book, he's like this, I still had a void no matter

[00:41:39] how many women I slept with and, you know, like that. But the thing, the thing about the dating

[00:41:46] advice that we would get, the main message was be mysterious, you know, or, or in the game,

[00:41:54] like peacock women and, or neg them or whatever the thing was. And so much of that advice about

[00:42:01] dating was the like antithesis of what strengthens the relationship. Yeah. So it's like, do we,

[00:42:10] do we, I don't know, be a little more mysterious in the beginning and gradually take the guard down?

[00:42:15] Like what's, what's the protocol? I think it's interesting. I think it depends on the mentality

[00:42:21] that each person goes into it with. Cause I've seen this with friends too. Like, you know, some people

[00:42:27] will want to go in for like a quick, you know, either to hook up or to like have the tiniest

[00:42:32] relationship for a month. And like, I've seen a lot of people go into relationships with that

[00:42:36] intention where it's like one to three months max and then they wrap it up. Yeah. And I think

[00:42:43] it's tough out there, especially with the way that dating apps are shaped where everything it's like,

[00:42:47] it's almost like you brought, um, like you're just in the, you know, a slot machine. Like you're just

[00:42:54] like swiping, swiping, swiping, swiping, swiping and see what you get. Um, but I think that we need

[00:43:01] more spaces where people can be honest about what is the longterm goal. Cause I think there are so

[00:43:07] many people out there who are, you know, just tired of the constant dating and they actually need to be

[00:43:12] matched up in pools where like serious relationships are actually the genuine goal. And that's something

[00:43:20] that, um, I'm currently working on, which is interesting, like, cause it's coming up right now,

[00:43:25] but it's, um, I'm hoping to build a relationship app in the future because I've been seeing so much

[00:43:31] from my friends, like how, like one traumatizing it is like on all these dating apps and the way

[00:43:37] dating is works now. But at the same time, like it's leading it for a few, for not too many people.

[00:43:43] It's like, you know, you'll get some success, but it's leading nowhere for many. And I think, uh,

[00:43:50] like I'm really trying to just, you know, build a place that not only creates relationships,

[00:43:55] but supports them. And it's just like allowing people who are growth minded to, and who want

[00:44:01] a serious relationship to find each other because it feels really needed. Okay. Well, that's beautiful.

[00:44:06] Tell me when that comes out. Yes, please. Yeah. I'm going to need your advice too. You know,

[00:44:10] the other thing I think about is our relationships are one thing, friendships and community are another

[00:44:16] thing. Wouldn't you agree that community is like pretty necessary? It's totally necessary. I mean,

[00:44:21] yeah. And people don't know how to find community. Like for example, when I think about the communities

[00:44:27] I grew up in, I knew you grew up in, in Ecuador. So I want to hear about what that was like, but I think

[00:44:32] a lot of people felt a lot of shame growing up in their communities because, you know, it would be

[00:44:39] someone that grew up in like a religious community that was told to like act and dress a certain way

[00:44:44] and that they had to abide by these rules. Otherwise, like they were bad and they would get

[00:44:49] punished. And so people have an aversion to that word community because their experience of community

[00:44:54] wasn't good. Yeah. So where do we find good communities? But also I think, I think the goal,

[00:45:03] I think people need to start their own communities. Like when I think of beyond, I'm like,

[00:45:06] this is going to be a newsletter. It's going to be a community. I'm doing, I've done live events.

[00:45:11] Like it's, it's a thing now. So, so what's your take on community? I think, I mean, there's two

[00:45:16] takes. One is like the internet. Like I've met some of my best friends through like through Instagram.

[00:45:23] Same. Like totally, honestly. And it's like, we've, there are some people that I'm just, I met years ago

[00:45:29] in the beginning or now. And I'm like, we're just connecting on such a vibe. We would have never met in

[00:45:35] person. We would have never fully crossed paths if it weren't for the algorithm somehow bringing us

[00:45:41] together depending on one particular interest. So that's one thing is like, I'm super grateful to

[00:45:47] like my internet friends that have become real life friends. The other side of it is like, so my wife

[00:45:54] and I, we just lived, we lived in New York city for seven years and our community was essentially our

[00:46:00] college friends. Like we all went to Wesleyan university and, and it was a tight knit group.

[00:46:06] Um, and we like roll in packs. Like it was like, for some reason this like Wesleyan crew,

[00:46:10] we were just like, we'd always roll deep to wherever we're going. And, um, and I'm still

[00:46:15] friends with these people even like what, 15, 15 years ago that we were in college, but

[00:46:20] it was very different. It was like hard to meet like random new people in the street,

[00:46:25] like in New York, because everyone's just like, the place is just so overcrowded and so

[00:46:28] small that everyone's keeping to their lane. And, um, when we moved out to Western Massachusetts

[00:46:34] and we were living in a town of 2000 people and we were taught community by our community

[00:46:41] members. Cause there, yeah. Cause we didn't know, we didn't like, we were still existing

[00:46:47] as like New Yorkers, but we did, you know, when we were like going for a walk outside, everyone

[00:46:54] says hello, like you cross someone's path. They're going to be like, hi, how are you

[00:46:58] doing? Like, what's up? You know? And we, I was so used to just like keeping my eyes to

[00:47:03] the ground and walking fast, walking fast and just going past. But it's like, no, you

[00:47:07] can't do that there. Like we're all here interconnected. And, and it's funny because

[00:47:12] like, you know, we, so we'll live out in the middle of the woods, but this community, like

[00:47:16] we all have each other's numbers. We all like, if there's a storm that comes by, people

[00:47:21] are like, you know, like helping you. Like if you don't happen to be home, they're like,

[00:47:26] okay, yeah, I'll go check your basement and make sure it's not flooded. Or, you know,

[00:47:29] this is my person that's going to help like, you know, take the trees down that fell. And

[00:47:33] everyone's like actively trying to share, you know, connections and like share like,

[00:47:38] you know, different ways to help each other. And I was so like, within six months, I was

[00:47:44] like in it. I was like, I love this. This is like amazing. And just be in community

[00:47:48] with all these people. Um, and then I'd go back to visit New York city for the first

[00:47:52] time. And I'm sitting on my boy's stoop, um, in Brooklyn and somebody walks by and I'm

[00:47:57] like, Hey, and this person looks at me like I'm crazy. They're like, Whoa, you know?

[00:48:02] And I was like, Oh, right. I'm in New York city. Let me pull it back. And, and it's just,

[00:48:08] um, I think it's something that's so valuable and so important for us to not forget about,

[00:48:13] especially those of us who live in major cities. Cause like we need each other to understand

[00:48:19] ourselves. Like we understand ourselves in relation to other people as well. It's not

[00:48:23] just like you in the mountain alone, you know, like you have to be like in community with other

[00:48:30] people and the way you act in these communities will show you how much progress you've made,

[00:48:35] how much you've grown, where you need to grow next. So I think these things need to be cherished,

[00:48:40] cultivated. And I'm glad that you're like building out, you know, like your community

[00:48:45] with beyond. Cause like we, we need that, you know, we need these places.

[00:48:50] Yeah. A hundred percent. So are you still living there?

[00:48:52] Yeah. Yeah. I'm deep and deep in the woods and I love it. I love it. Everybody says hi. It's so nice.

[00:48:57] Cause you're in a community. That's the thing. I was so shocked by how lonely people felt.

[00:49:03] Yeah. Do you get that a lot?

[00:49:05] No. I mean, I'm not surprised. Like, yeah, it's really lonely.

[00:49:08] Meaning like, I know you have your community and you're, um, you know, you have that sense of

[00:49:16] camaraderie. You have people to lean on, but do you get that in that? Like the, the people that are

[00:49:22] your fans that are consuming your work, do you get that a lot of them have a, have like a...

[00:49:28] Some of them. Yes. Yeah. Like I've gotten messages like that. And I think, I mean, that's just

[00:49:32] one of the things that the United States and probably the world are dealing with. Like loneliness is a

[00:49:37] massive epidemic and P and it's has physical repercussions. And it's very, um, like when

[00:49:45] I think about longevity and like, you know, building a healthy life, loneliness is the opposite of that.

[00:49:50] It's like going to shorten lives. It's kind of, you know, it's going to wreak havoc on your health.

[00:49:55] So I think it's the double-edged sword where like, yeah, you're meeting friends on the internet,

[00:50:01] but then the internet at the same time isolates you. And everything about the United States is like

[00:50:06] hyper atomized, right? Like this like atomic nuclear family. These are the people you talk to,

[00:50:11] but there's not much outside of that. And it's very contrary to how things are in Ecuador where like,

[00:50:18] so I was born there, but I, I came to the United States when I was four years old.

[00:50:23] But when I go back and visit, like my family, you know, they all, they will live really close to each

[00:50:31] other, like very close to each other. And, and will, you'll have easily three generations in the

[00:50:37] same household or in the house right next to each other. And, and it's so like nourishing to just

[00:50:44] like have your cousin right there and your aunt's right there. And like the newest babies right there.

[00:50:48] And like, there's all these people and you'll see that it's not just us. It's like all the other

[00:50:53] families are like living in community. And then like everybody knows everybody in the street. And

[00:50:59] even the way the streets are shaped, there are sometimes in Guayaquil where you'll have

[00:51:04] parties that will slip out into, into like into the sidewalk. And then the neighbors are also part

[00:51:11] of the party and like the person across the street and like, like even if they're not invited,

[00:51:16] they're just like, you're literally in this, you know, sometimes the houses will face each other

[00:51:21] in streets where cars can't pass by. And it's just like a tiny little sidewalk that's separating the

[00:51:27] houses and everyone's chilling. And it's, it's beautiful, but we don't have things like that

[00:51:33] here. I know it makes me emotional just as you're talking about it. I got this, um,

[00:51:37] I posted this photo of me and my friend like eating pizza the other day and I had a guy comment.

[00:51:45] Where's my phone? I want to read this to you. So I had a guy comment on the post and the comment

[00:51:54] made me so emotional because I'm sure it represents like what so many people feel. Yeah.

[00:51:59] Um, I'll read it too. So this guy wrote, I make pizza every two weeks over time. I have perfected

[00:52:06] it and can make a variety of different pizzas, some gourmet and some reminiscent of Domino's.

[00:52:12] However, I eat them all by myself. I'd love to have company so that I can enjoy them with others as well.

[00:52:17] I'm not even seeking romantic company. Any company would do, but it's been hard making friends.

[00:52:22] How do I fix this? And I message the guy, um, lives in Laguna and there's a lot of people there

[00:52:32] and I'm trying to like figure out what do I say? Like, and so I tell him, um, are there any group

[00:52:39] activities that people do? Are there any groups you can join? Um, and how would you answer this

[00:52:47] question? Because that was like the only advice that I had. But even as, even as you're talking

[00:52:54] about New York, I'm thinking like, Oh, I bet people in New York feel this way too.

[00:52:59] Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure. I mean, things are so like everyone is in their own world there. And I think

[00:53:06] it's hard. And I think your line of reasoning is something similar that I would use is like

[00:53:12] you, you know, try to go out there according to your, your interests. And it takes that, like

[00:53:18] that courage to like try again and like, you know, go to different events that you can get plugged into

[00:53:24] or, you know, talking to different people, but it does require an amount of courage. And I think a

[00:53:30] certain degree of vulnerability, even if you're not totally open, but like, Hey, like you want to be

[00:53:34] friends? Like I remember one, one of my oldest friends that I had from seventh grade when I, we, I

[00:53:40] went to this, um, this high school in Boston called Boston Latin Academy that like you're there from

[00:53:47] seventh to 12th grade and it's a public school. But, um, I remember I was sitting behind this girl.

[00:53:53] I didn't know nobody there. And I'm pretty sure the first thing I was, I was like, Hey, I was like,

[00:53:58] you want to be friends? She was like, yeah. You know? And like, we've been friends ever since.

[00:54:02] And like, she's my homie lives in San Francisco. And like, I see her every time I go there.

[00:54:05] No, what you just, you just were like, Hey, I want to be friends. Yeah. And she was down.

[00:54:09] Yeah. Cause we didn't know, we know, we didn't know anybody, but like, I remember that moment and

[00:54:13] it was scary to like put yourself out there and be like, are you down? You know, like,

[00:54:19] cause they might not be. Yeah. But it's, I think, yeah, it's, it's challenging.

[00:54:23] It is challenging in LA. It's particularly challenging because I like here, I'll tell you. Yeah. Um,

[00:54:29] first of all, most, a lot of people fly into LA because the goal is I want to be famous. I want

[00:54:37] to make it in Hollywood. I want to make it as a model. This is the industry. So, you know, it's a

[00:54:43] lot of like chasing fame mentality and a lot of like, you know, and there's also a lot of wealthy

[00:54:49] people that live here. And sometimes when you go out, it's like, I'm sure it's not like this in

[00:55:00] and even still sometimes like, you know, you'll be talking to someone and, and they're kind of

[00:55:05] looking over your shoulder to see like, Oh, is there someone more important here that I should

[00:55:09] be talking to? And you feel that. Um, and so a lot of times you feel like, how do I signal to people

[00:55:18] that I'm also important or that I'm somebody, you know, and there's honestly, there's ways to do

[00:55:24] that. Sometimes there's strategies for that too. Like I, I sometimes will tell my girlfriends like,

[00:55:30] I don't know, dress like this or, you know, it's so, it's so weird to say it out loud, but I'm such

[00:55:37] a strategic thinker and I'm, I'm, I'm very good at like pattern recognition. There are times just

[00:55:43] like, because of the way that I dress, people will come up to me and the conversation starter is

[00:55:48] literally, Oh my God, I love your pants or whatever. Oh my God. I love that necklace.

[00:55:54] Whatever the thing is. And I'm like, man, it's, it is such a superficial thing, but it at least gets

[00:56:01] the door open. I don't know. And then you can, you can figure out a way to bond authentically. But

[00:56:06] that was something that I noticed in LA because it's so much about like beauty and fashion and,

[00:56:11] and standing out. But I mean, there's other ways to connect to like, it's not always that way for

[00:56:17] me because, um, I don't know if you know this, but I used to do red carpet reporting.

[00:56:23] Okay. So I was at like the Oscars and Golden Globes and stuff. And so because I was in that world,

[00:56:29] that became my strategy. Right. Right. And as I started doing more and more of that,

[00:56:35] I noticed that the interviews were not very deep at those events. I was only allowed to talk about

[00:56:41] certain movies. What was it like working with so-and-so? Who do you think's going to win?

[00:56:46] Mm-hmm. I don't, I actually don't give a shit about that stuff. Real talk. And, and when I started

[00:56:52] Beyond, I was like, okay, maybe I can't get to this A-list actor, but like Andrew Schultz is an

[00:56:58] up and coming comedian. He'll talk to me. Right. And now look at him or like, you know, I would go

[00:57:03] after authors who were, who were so much more open to talking to me. You know? And what, something I

[00:57:10] like about authors and you'll relate is they know their message. Sometimes, you know, when someone's

[00:57:17] an actress or actor, like they're literally playing a role that doesn't mean that they're evolved or

[00:57:22] not evolved. Like they could be very deep and very, you know, a lot of, a lot of actors do write books,

[00:57:28] but I wasn't allowed to have those conversations. I wanted to talk to people about their relationships,

[00:57:34] their childhoods, their divorce, their marriage, whatever the thing was that I could learn from and

[00:57:38] that other people could learn from. I wasn't getting that over there. So I went after authors.

[00:57:44] Yeah. So if you'll notice a lot of my friends, even this, like it's, it all stems from my desire

[00:57:52] to go out there and interview people who had messages to share. That was it. That's amazing.

[00:57:58] I feel like I'm so glad because I, you know, do so many of these interviews, but this feels like a

[00:58:03] genuine conversation and like we're flowing back and forth and it feels so real. But I

[00:58:08] I want to tell you, you're, you're like telling, describing this. And I got to tell you this quick

[00:58:13] story that my friend who lives out here, so she works for one of the major talent agencies and she's

[00:58:17] an agent. She told me the last time I was here, she was like, she was like, when she goes out on

[00:58:23] dates, she can't tell people what she does, that she's an agent because she's like immediately the

[00:58:30] date's over and they're just working an angle. And it's like, she becomes like a lily pad that,

[00:58:35] you know, helps them bounce to the next place. And she's like, so that she'll literally have

[00:58:40] to tell people that she is a project manager or a teacher or something so that they can just get to

[00:58:45] know her for her. But as soon as she's like, Oh, I'm an agent. It's a wrap. It's like no longer like

[00:58:50] it's, you know, something, a person to use as opposed to a person to understand and get to know.

[00:58:57] Connect with.

[00:58:57] Yeah. It's like, I had that story is like burned into my mind because it's like, it's scary to me.

[00:59:03] That's pretty scary.

[00:59:03] Okay. Well, I, I relate to that so hard because as I grew over time and I'm not, I'm not known in

[00:59:11] the way that some of my friends are known as public figures, but the people that I'm friends with are

[00:59:17] known in that way. You know, the people that come and speak at my events like Naval Ravikant.

[00:59:22] Yeah. Yeah. Or Chris Voss or, you know, an Eric Weinstein or a Neil Strauss. Um, a lot of people see

[00:59:31] that I'm in that world and I've noticed even on dates that once that comes up or sometimes it can't

[00:59:38] even be avoided because you could see it on my Instagram. Yep. Yep. The entire conversation

[00:59:43] becomes about that. So that's a really interesting thing that you brought up to me. I would love to

[00:59:49] meet your friends because you two should be friends. Yeah. We should be friends because she's dope.

[00:59:53] Yeah. Because that's, that's such a, that's, that's so crazy. She's like a tastemaker. Like you are

[00:59:58] like, I've always thought like whatever, like this person in my mind has been cool for so long. Like

[01:00:03] when we were in college, I was like, I need to be friends with her. She's like, she's dope.

[01:00:07] Dope. Yeah. Yeah. And she's still like that. Yeah. But, but I relate to that because sometimes I

[01:00:12] even would lose myself in these like stories of who I became professionally. And I sort of,

[01:00:18] I feel like it, it hindered my dating because everyone would always ask me about that stuff.

[01:00:24] And so I would talk about it and then it's like, you lose the flirting, you lose the, the like witty

[01:00:29] banter and it becomes all about like what you do for work and like, Oh, well, how can we work together?

[01:00:35] And Oh, I'd love to meet so-and-so. And in, in some respects, like, I don't know, I, I like that too.

[01:00:42] Maybe just not in my dating. Like, I don't know. I look at you and I'm like, Oh my God,

[01:00:47] I need so-and-so to know the same way Simon Sinek handed your book to Maria Shriver, which by the

[01:00:53] way, Maria Shriver was such a, an influential and powerful figure in my brother's life because

[01:01:00] my, my brother and her daughter were close friends growing up. So he was always there.

[01:01:05] Yeah. Yeah. She's, she's so caring. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Like she's one of those people that she just,

[01:01:12] she wants to make the world a better place. Genuinely. And you can just like, she'll talk.

[01:01:17] My brother used to tell me she would talk to him for hours about like his life and our home life.

[01:01:23] And I was like, really? Like you go there and she just asks you all these questions. He's like,

[01:01:26] yeah. She's like our friend. You know, what's mad funny is, um, Maria is like, she's,

[01:01:32] she's so dope. And like, I'm, you know, still getting to know her. And as there was this one

[01:01:37] moment where I think we did our first, she interviewed me for the first time. And this,

[01:01:43] I mean, this was only like, I mean, like a year ago or so. Um, and my, my wife's mom and all her

[01:01:51] sisters, she's got a bunch of sisters. So like my, my wife has like literally six aunts. And, um,

[01:01:57] um, when my mom, um, my mother-in-law found out that I was interviewed by Maria Shriver,

[01:02:05] she lost it. She was like, what? Cause like, you know, you do all these other things and like,

[01:02:10] they don't understand like, you know, like, um, different podcasts and what's a big one and

[01:02:14] what's not. And when they heard Maria Shriver, her and all her sisters were like, Oh my God,

[01:02:22] like, what is this kid up to? He made it. And I was so, it's such a funny, like, you know,

[01:02:28] it like, uh, covered the Gulf of the generational Gulf that was there.

[01:02:32] Yeah. No, it's so, it's so funny. It's so, and I know, I know that, uh, because a lot of people

[01:02:39] here have that reaction to her. Like she was, you know, she was on big news networks and,

[01:02:44] and doing incredible stuff and just, yeah, that's really cool by the way. I didn't know she

[01:02:50] interviewed you. Yeah, no, she's, she's dope. Yeah. I'm super grateful. She's been such a

[01:02:55] positive influence in my life. Yeah. I love that. Um, yeah. So I relate to your friend and I always

[01:03:01] think about the dating to relationship pipeline. Yeah. Yeah. Always. I think so. And I think it's

[01:03:10] hard. It's like, you know, cause you want to like, uh, I never tell a story when, when my wife,

[01:03:17] when I told, I, I told my wife that I had feelings for her, right. Back when I was 19,

[01:03:26] she looked at me and she was like, I need time. She was like, I need to think. And I was, I was

[01:03:33] like, cool. You know, I walked, walked away. I went out to a party, but just like super pensive,

[01:03:39] checking my cell phone all the time to see when she would hit me up. She hits me up three hours

[01:03:43] later. And she was like, she's like, come, come back so we can talk. She told me that like,

[01:03:49] no, actually like we, we go both go to my, um, dorm room and I was like, Hey, how are you doing?

[01:03:58] The first thing she asked me, she was like, what are you thinking long-term? And I was like, what?

[01:04:05] I was like, do you even like me? You know, like there was no, cause I told her, I liked her,

[01:04:08] had feelings for her. I got nothing back. She was, she just immediately needed to process.

[01:04:13] And she told me afterwards that she had to think about like, you know, I really like him as a friend.

[01:04:19] I don't want to mess this up. Like, should we genuinely date? But if we're going to date,

[01:04:23] like, are you serious? Cause if you're not serious, it's a no go. So she put it up the first thing,

[01:04:29] first question, like, what are you thinking long-term? And I remember in my mind, I was like,

[01:04:34] I don't even know if you even like me, you know? And she was like, yeah, totally. But I wanted to

[01:04:39] make sure. And I feel like there's a boldness there that I think can totally scare off tons of people,

[01:04:44] of course. But when she let her parameters be known, I w it was clear to me if I wanted to

[01:04:55] enter into those parameters or not. And I'm grateful to her because who would have thought like now we're

[01:05:01] like 15 years deep. And if she hadn't said that, you know, or she hadn't entered with that frame of

[01:05:07] mind, I think that frame of mind like helped the both of us so much. And to me, it's just hilarious

[01:05:13] that at 18, she was like, what are you thinking long-term? Oh my God. I love her. Oh my God.

[01:05:19] I love that she knew to say that at that age. And I know I'm grateful. Cause like now I'm just,

[01:05:25] you know, we, we got to grow up together. Yeah.

[01:05:28] It's crazy because I feel like a lot of people would be so afraid to say that, to rock the boat

[01:05:34] and say that. Yeah. And I find that the more bold people are in the way that they communicate,

[01:05:41] bold and vulnerable. Cause in a way that she's being vulnerable to tell you, are you serious?

[01:05:46] Totally. Yeah. But the more bold and vulnerable you are, the closer you get to the thing that you

[01:05:53] want. You guys are married. Yeah. Yeah. And a good relationship. Yeah. We love it. We're

[01:05:58] having fun. Yeah. And so, man, it's so funny because I keep having this conversation over and

[01:06:05] over again. Um, you know, one of the reasons I, I, I actually beyond the interview existed way before

[01:06:11] this podcast did, I never wanted to start a podcast. My manager, Jeff, I got, he negotiated my,

[01:06:20] my first sponsor for me. And I was like, I don't know if I want to do this. And he's like,

[01:06:25] you're doing it. Yeah. He's like, I know this is something that you want to do and you're going

[01:06:28] to be successful at it. You're doing this. And the reason I was so afraid to start a podcast was a

[01:06:36] cultural fear that I had where like, you know, you keep seeing this conversation. I'm sure you see this

[01:06:41] conversation just cause you're tapped in of like masculinity, femininity. You see that a lot.

[01:06:47] So, so I grew up thinking I have to be passive, very feminine, quiet, a listener, not bold, not express

[01:07:01] my opinions too much. And I was like, I can't start a podcast because then people are just going to think

[01:07:07] that I'm some like opinionated bitch with a podcast. Yeah. So if that's going to harm me

[01:07:15] and make an, and get in my way of like getting married and having a family, then I'm sorry. I

[01:07:23] don't want to do that. I don't want to do that. Like that's how scared I was. I was like, there's no

[01:07:28] way I'm going to be lumped into this category of career boss, opinionated girls. There's no way.

[01:07:35] Yeah. And then I had, uh, this friend of mine, Ronan, who's like, Nicole, you've played that other

[01:07:43] game and it hasn't worked. Like you have clearly there's no problem in attracting a man. Like

[01:07:50] literally any girl can dress hot, look good post a thirst trap. Yeah. Yeah. And a million fire signs

[01:07:58] come through. Oh, what are you doing this week? It's a, it's not hard, but to really connect with

[01:08:03] someone on a deep level, I have not had that in a very long time. No podcast, no connection.

[01:08:11] Then he goes, you keep telling me you want to get married. Married means one person. So actually

[01:08:18] if you go and put yourself out there and you do, and you do this podcast, then you're narrowing it

[01:08:25] down to one. Yeah. Like the people that are going to be attracted to you for you, those, that you're

[01:08:32] not going to get, you know, the guys that are responding to your thirst traps from it, but you'll

[01:08:36] get the guys who are listening to you. Yeah. And I'm like, interesting. And it's so crazy that that

[01:08:43] fear stopped me. Like I was, I was actually afraid of so many things. I would have never said that even

[01:08:48] at like age 30, what your, what your wife said to you at 18, like, oh my God, that's amazing. And,

[01:08:56] and I'm sure a lot of girls would be afraid to say that to someone, but in reality, we all want a

[01:09:01] relationship. We all want to be with someone. And that was the thing that brought you closer. You had

[01:09:07] to think, am I in it for that or no? And it, and you're married now. So I love it. Yeah. Yeah. And

[01:09:12] it took a long time to really like double down on it. I feel like I was always the, the one who was

[01:09:17] kind of like on the fence. I mean, she was on the fence sometimes too, when things got hard, but,

[01:09:21] but, um, I, we like both sort of learned over time that, that we wanted to make this work and it was

[01:09:29] going to take a lot of effort. And, you know, I'm grateful. Cause I'm, I feel like it's because it's,

[01:09:36] it's in part because of her, the young Pueblo exists. It's, it's, you know, all these things,

[01:09:41] like I didn't do any of this alone, you know, like I've, we've been working together in conjunction

[01:09:45] where she, you know, gave me time to, to be able to develop my voice as a writer and to really just

[01:09:53] like keep trying to, you know, put more reflections out there, work on the first book, work on the

[01:09:59] second book and, and get all of this to be more mature so that, um, so that I can make a real career

[01:10:05] out of writing. And, but if it wasn't for her support, like she held us down when she worked as

[01:10:10] a scientist so that I could have time to just like learn how to write. And does she still work as a

[01:10:16] scientist? No, not anymore. Now we were, now she's my manager full time. Okay. So, so in what, so in what

[01:10:22] capacity do you guys work together? Like what, what's the dynamic? The main thing is, I mean, she, she

[01:10:28] handles all the like young Pueblo communications with all of the sort of like the talent agency, the

[01:10:35] manager, not the managers, the, um, the publishers, the, just like all of the different kind of the

[01:10:42] companies we're working with and all that. So she's kind of just like crafting all of that,

[01:10:46] like who we're saying yes and no to and who we're kind of working with. And we do a lot of the bigger

[01:10:52] decisions together. Like when we decided to work with United Talent Agency, like they were just such

[01:10:57] beautiful people and we both met with them and we're like, and afterwards we're like, we're talking

[01:11:02] to each other and we're like, they felt pretty good. Yeah. And she was like, yeah, like I liked

[01:11:06] them. And only because the both of us said yes, did we like agree to work with them? And it's sort of

[01:11:12] the bigger decisions. Like I, we both need to feel it out. And it's always about feeling. Cause like

[01:11:17] a lot of people will tell you the same thing and they'll offer you this and offer you that.

[01:11:21] Yeah. But if the person feels good, then we're like, yep, let's work with these people. Um,

[01:11:27] but then she helps with all that side of things. Um, so that I can just focus on the writing

[01:11:32] and then I do the writing, the posting. And then I also work on the venture capital side,

[01:11:37] uh, with a company that I made with a few friends who are in Silicon Valley.

[01:11:42] And we basically raised a $10 million fund to invest in companies that are building sort of

[01:11:48] that next generation of tech companies that are created in a compassionate manner where like

[01:11:52] we understand that tech can make you more lonely, can make you more depressed, can affect

[01:11:57] your mind in negative ways. So these are companies that are not trying to do that, that are trying

[01:12:01] to hold the mind more gently. Yeah. I heard you mentioning that to Steve Bartlett on diary of a

[01:12:06] CEO. Yeah. So that, that company is called wisdom ventures and I've been spending the past two years,

[01:12:11] just like getting to know the venture capital world, being a general partner, um, you know,

[01:12:16] helping make these investments. And, and now I'm working on this other company that I mentioned

[01:12:20] earlier that'll come out next year. Um, so because she like, you know,

[01:12:37] I should introduce you to, yeah, please do. Yeah. We'll talk about that after, but I love that

[01:12:41] you're doing that because it's so important. And I feel like there's a lot of people I talk to in

[01:12:45] tech who are, who are very focused on the same thing. Like they're, they're realizing that the

[01:12:50] problem is that we all were so disconnected, even though we're constantly on these devices that are

[01:12:55] supposed to connect us. Right. Um, so, and I think that's, that's the big problem from the

[01:13:00] sort of that, that last, that era of like 2010 to 2020 of a lot of these different technologies that

[01:13:07] we're using every day now that they're good, but they need to keep evolving because they've done a

[01:13:13] lot of good things, but they've also caused a lot of harm. So we just have to keep pushing it and try to

[01:13:17] actually design things in a compassionate manner where whoever's creating the product,

[01:13:23] they're like, we're actively going to keep the wellbeing of the user in mind while we're designing

[01:13:29] it, whether it's a wellbeing company or not. It's like, let's make sure that the mind is not hurt in

[01:13:33] the process of using this. Wow. Oh, I love that so much. Um, let's talk about friendship for a second.

[01:13:41] How would you define friend? Um, friend, I mean, I think a friend is someone that can just like

[01:13:52] see you and you can see them like whether, whatever, if, whether you're similar or not.

[01:13:59] Cause I think that's one thing I've not learned about friendships is that we all have our different

[01:14:03] evolutionary trajectories and we're working on different things, but some of the longest running

[01:14:08] friendships that I've had, um, they're very like, they're not very demanding friendships where like,

[01:14:16] like I think about my boy Lennon, where him and I became friends when we were in fourth grade,

[01:14:21] we're in the same fourth grade class. We've been friends for like literally like 25 years. And,

[01:14:28] um, and our friendship will ebb and flow where some years we're like together all the time,

[01:14:35] always chilling and always doing mad things together. Other years, you know, we're in different

[01:14:40] cities or, you know, or especially when, you know, when he had his, uh, his child, like those first few

[01:14:47] years, it was just like, so focused on the child and rearing the child and helping with that early

[01:14:52] stage. And we'll have different evolutions of the friendship. And I'm just so grateful because

[01:15:00] even though we're different people and we're working on different things and,

[01:15:04] you know, we may be living in different places, it's like, there's an element of home there.

[01:15:10] And this is, and it's really interesting. I think this dynamic with friends that I've noticed now,

[01:15:14] where if I have new friends, I look particularly for the quality of, you know, is this someone who

[01:15:21] likes to grow? Like I'm really attracted to that, you know, you know, I'm just like,

[01:15:25] if somebody really likes to grow, it's like, cool, we can bond. Doesn't mean you have to meditate

[01:15:29] like how I do or do whatever that I, you know, it's like, but if you're growing as an individual,

[01:15:34] that's mad cool. Yeah. If it's evolving is a priority, we're good. I know that's,

[01:15:39] that's like the main thing. But with my homies from back in the day, I really, um,

[01:15:45] like, I love them so much that it's like their family and they're all, you know, growing and

[01:15:49] doing things in different ways, but they're their own people. I'm never trying to change them.

[01:15:54] I'm myself. They accept me for how I am, but there's this, like, it does, it's almost like

[01:16:00] we're, we're this undividable family. So we're just friends for life, you know, whether we're

[01:16:05] talking the same lingo or believing the same things. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. It goes back to the,

[01:16:11] I told you earlier, um, I think defining things is really important because we grow up having people

[01:16:18] that we think are friends and then we realize like, oh no, this isn't a friend at all. Um,

[01:16:23] the definition I give for me is someone who can celebrate your wins with you, but also be there

[01:16:30] during the hard times because I think if someone's only there when things are good, that's bad. But

[01:16:36] then there's also, and people, people think this is a good thing. Oh, they're there for you during

[01:16:41] the hard times. That means that they're a good friend. It's not, they have to be there for the

[01:16:47] wins too, because a lot of people like hearing other people complain about life to confirm that

[01:16:53] they're not the only one suffering. And I don't like that. Oh, that's so wow. Right. Yeah. That's a deep

[01:16:58] awareness. It's a really, like if you had a friend, for example, and you're a very successful

[01:17:04] poet, author, public figure, if they're only there to listen to you when you're like, man,

[01:17:10] I'm down bad. But then like you come out with a new book and they're never sharing it or saying

[01:17:16] congratulations or offer any, it would make you feel some type of way. Yeah, for sure. And I think,

[01:17:24] I think acknowledging that is really powerful. I think people don't realize how,

[01:17:30] how much we all need recognition and acknowledgement. It's, it's different. I mean,

[01:17:36] you're a public figure, so it's, it's, I'm sure you get enough of it. Yeah. But, but some,

[01:17:42] not everybody is famous. No. And I, I think that's two things that you're hitting at right there that I

[01:17:47] love is like one, I love my friends, especially my college friends and my friends from before then that

[01:17:54] they are super happy for me, super proud, but they also in their own way could care less. They're

[01:18:00] like not impressed, right? They're, you're still you, the same as them and you're just chilling.

[01:18:05] And it's like, I love that element of like, no one's expecting me to say anything wise. It's not

[01:18:11] like, it's like, you know, that's part. Yeah. I like developing and, you know, um, meditating to

[01:18:17] like understand how the universe works and understand how these things work. But I'm not always thinking

[01:18:21] about that. Like I need downtime as well. And those friends that just want to chill, it's like the best

[01:18:27] thing ever. Um, but I feel like, oh yeah, lost, I lost my thought. That's fine. It's okay. I have

[01:18:35] lots of other thoughts. Don't worry. Yeah. Um, there's a question that I ask everybody on this podcast.

[01:18:42] And the reason I ask it is because there's so many messages that we all feel are important to share,

[01:18:52] but it's hard to determine which message is the most important or most urgently needs to be shared

[01:18:59] in this moment in time. And so I came up with a scenario to help with that. Okay. You ready?

[01:19:04] Yeah. Ready. Okay. So you're at the Oscars and you are nominated for, let's say a documentary about

[01:19:14] healing and they call out all the nominees. And then finally they announced the winner and it's you.

[01:19:22] And you walk up to the stage, you hold up your award. You thank everybody you need to thank your

[01:19:28] parents, Sarah, you know, all, all the podcasts hope hosts and your fans and, and everyone who helped

[01:19:35] you spread these in these messages and bought your books and helped you with the documentary. And then

[01:19:41] there's about a 45 second to one minute window where you can say anything and, uh, it's going to go viral.

[01:19:50] There's going to be headlines and all the major outlets going to be on Tik TOK reels, everything.

[01:19:58] And you, I know, you know, those, those moments when like, you know, Matthew McConaughey has given a

[01:20:02] speech or someone has given a speech and it goes, it goes viral. So in that, in that time span,

[01:20:11] what message is so important to you that that's what you would share in that moment?

[01:20:19] I think it's, it has to be the message that healing is not only possible for the individual, but we need

[01:20:28] individuals to double down on their healing. If we're going to change the world and move it in a better

[01:20:32] direction. Like we have to understand that this is a special historic moment. There are more people in

[01:20:41] therapy than ever before. There are more people meditating than ever before. There are people using such a wide range of

[01:20:47] modalities. And to me, it's awe inspiring that at the same time that we have all these huge challenges that we face as a

[01:20:55] humanity, that we're also given these tools that we can deeply heal our minds so that we can continue trying to change the

[01:21:04] world into a better place. But at the same time, we're simultaneously changing ourselves because this happens over and

[01:21:11] over historically. There are always groups of people who want to change the world and make it a better place. But

[01:21:17] oftentimes they win, they gain power and the ugly version of themselves arises because that's what power does, right?

[01:21:23] Power pulls out the roughest parts of the ego. And then these people that were once heroes actually just start

[01:21:29] replicating the thing that they were once fighting against. So for us to get it right this time,

[01:21:34] is we have to double down on our healing. Not only is it going to make your life better,

[01:21:38] but if you continue healing yourself, your creativity is going to become brighter than ever.

[01:21:45] You're going to look at old problems and see new solutions. You're going to improve all facets of

[01:21:51] your relationships, but it's also going to change society. So we have to keep going.

[01:21:58] I love that. I do end on that question, but I have more questions, so I'm just going to keep going.

[01:22:03] Um, just a few more though. Um, so as happens with any public figure, um, of course you have your fans.

[01:22:13] Of course you have your fans that never comes without critics ever. So as you've put yourself out there,

[01:22:21] I'm sure you look at some of the criticism and I don't know what your process is with it,

[01:22:29] but in many ways we all look at that and think, no, this person doesn't understand me. And I wish you

[01:22:40] can't address every single critic, obviously like just, yeah, there's no time. But in what way do you

[01:22:45] generally feel misunderstood? Oh, that's a good one. I think, um, I tell probably the most common

[01:22:55] misunderstanding is like when I post something, it's not that this is the end all be all of a message

[01:23:03] and that this is for everyone. This message is actually for those that it is for the people who

[01:23:11] connect with it. So, right. It's a point of reflection, not a fact. So some people get upset

[01:23:17] because they're like, Oh, I don't see life that way. And blah, blah. It's like, great. I'm happy for you.

[01:23:21] Like this wasn't for you. Fantastic. Right. Love it. But there's no, like, um, there's no,

[01:23:28] like, I'm not like dominating a narrative here. I'm just pointing out reflection. So I think people

[01:23:32] misunderstand that sometimes. And at the same time, I've like had to, I've had to teach myself that,

[01:23:39] um, like if I'm everything for everyone, then I'm nothing, right. Nothing for no one. And I love that

[01:23:46] because it's, it's really true. Like you just can't make everyone happy. You can't like,

[01:23:52] you know, stretch yourself out that, that wide that, you know, it's literally impossible. So

[01:23:59] you try your best, you know, you try your best that you share the reflections that you think are

[01:24:03] important. They help a bunch of people. Some people are like, you know, they disagree and other

[01:24:09] people, you know, might get upset, but it's like, your intention was never to upset them. And it was

[01:24:14] literally just a poem. Like it's, you know, so it's, you try your best and, and ultimately you

[01:24:20] just, you can't control people's perception. So I try not to worry about it too much. Cause I'm not like,

[01:24:25] um, I'm not out there to please everyone or prove anything. It's just like, yeah,

[01:24:31] if you don't like it, cause it's think about it to me, I find that it's a very natural thing to,

[01:24:38] to, um, have preferences. Right. So like there are some authors that I love more than other authors.

[01:24:44] But if there's a particular book that I didn't love, I don't hate the author. Right. I'm not like,

[01:24:51] you know, it's just like, Oh, that wasn't for me. Like, you know, and that's been my line. And when

[01:24:56] I think about that, it's really helpful. Like it's not, I don't like this. It's just not for me.

[01:25:01] And that's great. That's a great, but if you're like, I not only do I know I don't like this,

[01:25:06] I hate this. And you just put tons of negative energy into it for what you're just bringing yourself

[01:25:11] down. That's, that's my one thing with beyond that I've noticed is the political side of things

[01:25:22] has turned people's brains into brains that have no tolerance for anything. And there's so much,

[01:25:29] there are, there are amazing people that are doing the healing work and they're not like that,

[01:25:33] but there's definitely a lot of people who feel like they need to take a side or a stance

[01:25:40] on every single thing. Yeah. And that's the one thing that I feel like I'm trying to teach people

[01:25:45] is that if you can just be like tolerant and let things go, for example, I would never,

[01:25:51] as someone who's pro-choice, I would never sit there and argue with someone who's religious and

[01:25:56] is pro-life. I just wouldn't do it. The conversation's never going to go anywhere.

[01:25:59] Right. You know what I mean? Like, obviously I would vote in one direction,

[01:26:03] but there's no way in hell I'm going to spend my time online because that person really believes

[01:26:09] like, Hey, I value life. Right. And to me, um, that is murder and that's their opinion. Right. To

[01:26:17] me, I also value life, but I'm thinking of it in a different way. Yep. You know, is this person

[01:26:22] equipped to be a mom? Yeah. You know, you know, it's, it's, I like the way that you're sort of

[01:26:28] positioning that too, because I have been doubling down on not forcing myself to make an assessment.

[01:26:37] Like I got it to this quick story. So I went to a 45 day meditation course that was in the very

[01:26:43] beginning of 2022 and I was totally away, you know, like not on the internet, didn't have my phone,

[01:26:49] no computer, 45 days, 45 days, totally offline, just meditating. And at towards the end of that

[01:26:56] meditation course, the Ukraine war started and I come out and I'm on go on Twitter and I'm like,

[01:27:02] you know, just got out of a long meditation course. Haven't been online. Um, and people were like

[01:27:09] commenting underneath there like, don't check the news. Don't do it. Like, you know, like preserve

[01:27:14] your peace. You don't want to know what's going on. I'm like, Oh snap. Like what's happening.

[01:27:19] And I go on Instagram and let me tell you, everyone's stories were fired up. People were

[01:27:26] so pro war, so against war. So this, so that, you know, both sides of it and both sides, extremely

[01:27:32] extreme, right? Like really like, this is the right way, the only way. And I'm watching everything

[01:27:37] go down and I'm like, wow, what's going on? And then I feel the internal pressures of like,

[01:27:42] I should be part of this group or I should be part of that group or like, am I for it? Am I,

[01:27:47] am I against it? And then luckily my mind was like, you need to slow down. You, you literally

[01:27:54] do not even know what's going on. You have no, you have zero information. So don't just build a

[01:28:00] perspective or take a stance because you see some of your friends on one side. You also don't know

[01:28:06] what they know, you know? So take time to learn. And I think that moment, I'm really grateful for it

[01:28:13] because it was like, I don't need to jump and just be like, you know, say what everyone else is saying.

[01:28:18] Yeah. I need to just sit back and learn. And to me now, like, you know, that, that idea has evolved

[01:28:25] now. Like, I'm not interested in debates. Like, you know, I'm interested in thinking together,

[01:28:31] right? Like as a, as a cohesive unit, let's consider topics together. And if, and if we find points of

[01:28:38] disagreement, I'd rather ask you, tell me more, right? Like I want to understand more of what

[01:28:44] you're thinking and why you think that way. And not to say that it's going to change my perspective,

[01:28:49] but just because I'm curious about how you see things. And I think it's, it's just been a really

[01:28:55] helpful experience, like coming out and seeing everyone. And it was just like, whoa, like everyone

[01:28:59] chose sides and is digging in the trenches. And I think I'd rather just take my time. You know,

[01:29:05] I take my, and of course you got to speak up. There are moments where your voice needs to be heard,

[01:29:10] but be intentional, like learn, read, like, don't just like say what everyone else is saying.

[01:29:15] Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a big problem where, and again, back to the community thing,

[01:29:22] I never, because I noticed the way things were in politics. And to me, that's a political issue.

[01:29:29] Oh, for sure.

[01:29:29] Um, the second you feel that you belong to a political side, which is why I'm so apolitical,

[01:29:38] then you kind of feel like you need to agree with them on everything. And if you don't,

[01:29:43] you're outside of the herd. Yeah. And so that's why I noticed that a lot of people do it. And my whole,

[01:29:50] my, another big goal of mine, and I have a lot of friends who are political commentators,

[01:29:54] a lot of friends, but my whole goal is let's not rely on politicians and this line of thinking

[01:30:03] to help our lives because it won't. Yeah. And these people that, that we're voting for and fighting over,

[01:30:10] they're not going to help you. Yeah. You're going to help you always. Yeah. So to me,

[01:30:15] that's why I like the young Pueblos and the Jillian Tareckis of the world. And like Cody Sanchez with

[01:30:22] her boring businesses and Naval Ravikant with everything that he talks about. And to me,

[01:30:27] I'm just like, I want to find the problem solvers of the world. And I want to point people in that

[01:30:33] direction. That's all, that's all I want to do. There's a lot of value in that because we can,

[01:30:38] we can work on the micro level and get a lot done and doesn't all have to be at this macro level.

[01:30:45] And I mean, I feel you like institutions need to change. Like where, like I was just talking to a

[01:30:51] friend earlier was like, we're always going right and left, but we never go up. Yeah. We need to

[01:30:56] elevate like it's time, you know? Yeah. Um, on the dating conversation, the whole, the masculinity,

[01:31:04] femininity thing is one topic. And then have you heard the like, uh, return to tradition?

[01:31:11] Like I've seen a lot of that on Tik TOK. Okay, exactly. You're like the stay at home mom thing.

[01:31:18] And when I look at it as someone who's like, I feel like I'm evolving the way you are.

[01:31:24] There's no one size fits all. If you want to be a working mom, if you want to not have kids,

[01:31:30] if you want to be a stay at home mom, those are all, that's what I'm saying. When you brought that

[01:31:34] up, I was like, Oh, this is an easy one. You just do what you want. Yeah. Thank you. And, and to me,

[01:31:39] like people that are sitting there and being like, Oh, we need a return to family and this and that.

[01:31:45] And, and we need to, we need women to, you know, not go the career boss babe path and blah, blah,

[01:31:50] blah. It's like, I, I remember the way that some of the right wing commentators, some of which I'm

[01:31:58] friends with reacted to Chelsea Handler making a parody video. Do you remember this? No, I think I

[01:32:05] might've missed it. Yeah. I'll play it for you. The way they reacted to her, she's a comedian,

[01:32:11] just making a video about how she likes smokes weed and masturbates all day. Yeah. And she's just

[01:32:17] like, yeah, I'm doing great. And everyone on that side was like, Oh, it's so sad. Women watching

[01:32:22] women over 35, you know, not having kids and blah, blah, blah. And it's like, I don't think she wants

[01:32:29] that. And to be honest with you, like not everyone needs to be a mom. No, like you, yeah, you have to

[01:32:37] find your own way. Exactly. And so, so to me, and I confronted one of my friends who was like on that

[01:32:43] side. Um, and I was like, I don't like the way you're talking about this. And he, I was lucky. He

[01:32:49] was very understanding. And, and he's like, Oh, I didn't realize that, that, you know, it was such a

[01:32:55] big deal. The way I reacted. Yeah. This, this is, you know, you're shining a light on a really

[01:33:01] sort of important quiet function of the ego that it does so quickly where the ego will,

[01:33:09] will want other people to think and act just the way it does. Why? Because it finds comfort in that.

[01:33:17] It finds security in that. So a lot of times when people are like trying to get everyone else to like

[01:33:22] believe the same narrative that I'm putting out there, see things the same way, but it's just like,

[01:33:29] why? Like it's one that's impossible to, it's like, it's unnecessary. Why do you need to dominate?

[01:33:34] Like, just let it, let it be like, let people flow and exist. Like to me, what matters most is that

[01:33:40] we stop intentionally and unintentionally harming each other. And then outside of that, you do your

[01:33:47] thing, you know, like, yeah, you do you. Yeah. Yeah. I love that so much. Um, but I think that's the

[01:33:55] most important thing is that we need to be conversation, be having conversations that move

[01:34:01] the needle, or as you said, move us up because we're not really having that. No. And I think

[01:34:06] that's one of the toughest parts. And I'm grateful to meditating because I think meditating in particular

[01:34:11] has helped me, um, see subtlety where I did not see subtlety before, before the mind would just jump

[01:34:18] between black and white. But now it's like, can see how both things may converge or see something,

[01:34:26] find a middle path that wasn't quite there before. You know, a lot of times like this, this, uh,

[01:34:31] meditation technique that, that I've been practicing in for the past 11 years that originates from the

[01:34:36] Buddhist teaching. And sometimes people will ask, you know, in that regard, like, and I remember that

[01:34:42] was the question I asked. One of the first questions I asked the teacher in my first course, like,

[01:34:46] wasn't the Buddha craving enlightenment? And he was like, no, he, he had enlightenment as a goal.

[01:34:53] Right. And, and to, in my mind, like, I couldn't originally see a difference between the two, but now

[01:34:59] it's so much more clear where like, when you're craving something in particular, there's that element

[01:35:04] of constant stress, right? You're just like, you want it so bad. And when you don't get it, you get it

[01:35:09] so upset. But when you have something as a genuine goal, an objective goal, you may not get what you

[01:35:14] originally were striving for, but then you don't get upset about it. You like actually go back to

[01:35:21] the drawing board and you re strategize and you figure out how you can do things better to keep

[01:35:26] aiming towards that goal. And I think it's been a valuable lesson. And it showed me like, wow,

[01:35:31] like we're constantly swaying from extreme to extreme and missing the middle path.

[01:35:35] Oh, a hundred percent. I think what makes it worse is the being on our phone so much and scrolling so

[01:35:42] much. So I have another question for you that I think you'd be able to answer. Um, because you,

[01:35:51] you know, you do take care of your mental health. Yeah. Um, you know, people don't like to admit this,

[01:35:58] but you do have a little more control over what you see and what you don't see.

[01:36:04] Meaning you can unfollow accounts. You can follow certain accounts. You can mute certain accounts.

[01:36:10] You do sort of have that choice. Yeah. And you don't have kids yet, do you? No, not yet.

[01:36:17] But you want kids? Hopefully in the future. Okay. Um, I guess you can answer this question with,

[01:36:23] with or without them, but you know, you're talking to a young person and you want to make sure that they

[01:36:31] have a healthy relationship with the world. Part of having, having a healthy relationship with the

[01:36:36] world is having a healthy relationship with this device that you're spending half of your time on.

[01:36:42] Totally. So how would you advise people to consume, consume the internet? Like for me,

[01:36:50] I just would say, follow the, follow the problem solvers. If you see people that are out there

[01:36:55] and largely this is what helped me. When I got into like the tech VC entrepreneur world, I was like,

[01:37:01] oh man, these people are solving problems all day way better than the like political people who are

[01:37:06] just, I mean, that was wild. So I was like, I want to be around these people. I'll make more money.

[01:37:11] And I did. And I'll meet cooler people. And I did. And the authors too. That's what I wanted.

[01:37:18] I was like, I just want the problem solvers. I want, I want solution oriented people. And then

[01:37:23] that's what I would focus on or like comedians too, or meme pages. Cause it would make me laugh.

[01:37:28] So how would you advise someone to consume the internet? Like what would you tell them

[01:37:33] to follow and look for when they're scrolling? You know, not only, I mean, your piece of advice

[01:37:38] is like really, really important, like solution oriented people. That sounds incredibly valuable

[01:37:44] to have in your feed. I think you also want to have people in your feed that are either bringing

[01:37:51] information in regards to the goal that you're trying to set or that are bringing inspiration

[01:37:56] around that goal. Cause I think that's really helpful. Like if you're, you know, in your like

[01:38:00] fitness era, you know, or if you're in your meditation era, whatever it is, you know,

[01:38:06] bring those people into your algorithm so that you can get fed that good quality content.

[01:38:10] The other aspect of having a good relationship with it is that you want to balance it out with times

[01:38:18] of solitude or times when you're just, you know, you're intentionally doing things where you don't

[01:38:24] need to have your phone in your pocket or something like that. Because I find that the moments when I

[01:38:30] go out to my garden and I'm just like, you know, watering the Tulsi or taking cuttings from the Tulsi.

[01:38:38] Tulsi is like a medicinal, you know, a tea that you can drink.

[01:38:44] Those moments I'm, I'm like, if I have my phone in my pocket, I'll take my phone out and just

[01:38:49] leave it, you know, so I can be out in the garden for like 30, 40 minutes and just like,

[01:38:54] you know, and it's different because obviously meditation, I don't, obviously don't have my

[01:38:58] phone or anything like that. And the phone's off, but it's still, you know, not too far away.

[01:39:03] It's like, it has a, it has a timer that's set for an hour. Um, the same thing when, when my wife

[01:39:09] and I go for walks, right? We'll like go for walks together. We'll like try to leave our phones behind

[01:39:13] and having these moments. Cause it, there's a lot of health in those small moments of solitude or

[01:39:20] small moments when you're like intentionally disconnecting because that's, that's real human

[01:39:26] life. Like that's how it was for thousands and thousands of years. So when we lose that and we

[01:39:31] become like perpetually attached to the phone, I think it's, um, like an, I don't know, it's almost

[01:39:39] like a, like an unnecessary safety thing or, you know, it's too, but so like attached to the,

[01:39:45] the pleasantness that our algorithms give us. So we need to like disconnect from that,

[01:39:50] relearn what it's like to just be and to just let ourselves sit in the present moment.

[01:39:56] Yeah. No, I noticed that yesterday I was, I was with my friends, but I was constantly checking,

[01:40:01] like I was going from Instagram to email to X formerly Twitter, but just like all the different

[01:40:07] apps. And I noticed I was like looking like, is someone important messaging me maybe, you know,

[01:40:13] I was just like looking for that. And then I was like, you know what? I don't feel good. And I'm like,

[01:40:18] guys, I was with my friends. I was like, guys, we need to put our phones away and we're going on a

[01:40:21] walk right now. We're just, we're leaving. Every time you scroll, every time you're moving

[01:40:27] through the phone, you're burning energy. And I try to remind myself of that, like another scroll,

[01:40:32] more energy that I'm burning because your mind is consuming like so many calories, so many,

[01:40:36] so much information. So I like that exhausted feeling of having, you know, look through so many

[01:40:43] emails, scroll too much, look through so much TikTok, like you're literally tired.

[01:40:48] So you got to put it down. Yeah. Yeah. By the way, have you followed Deion Sanders yet?

[01:40:56] Yeah. I've been getting a lot of Deion Sanders contact. I'm obsessed.

[01:41:00] No, he's like changing. I don't know what it is. He's having his moment. He's having his moment,

[01:41:05] but I feel like, and I'm not even like big into sports or anything like that,

[01:41:10] but I feel like I need a coach like that. Yeah. Like he's all of our coach. I know. He's so funny.

[01:41:16] I love that. He, the, the clip of him talking about his cousin, how like he couldn't catch his

[01:41:20] cousin and wait, tell me that one. I don't, I didn't see that one. He was saying that his cousin

[01:41:24] was like the fastest person that he ever, like they were like, who's a better athlete than you.

[01:41:28] And he was like, it was definitely my cousin, you know, like I think his cousin, I don't know if

[01:41:32] his cousin was like on drugs or something, but he was like, he would like run around and he would

[01:41:35] try to catch his cousin, but he was too fast. And like, it was just like this random

[01:41:39] untrained athlete. It was better than him.

[01:41:41] No way. Yeah. It's really funny. Okay. You need to send me that. For me,

[01:41:46] there was one where he was talking about like not caring what people think and the way it was edited.

[01:41:53] It was like, I don't know. It's, it's the combination of what he's saying with the theatrics

[01:41:59] of the editing where I'm just like, yo, I am fired up when I listened to this.

[01:42:04] Oh, that's great. It's, it's unreal. I feel like we, that's the thing. It's like,

[01:42:09] he provides that sense of being on a team, but you're not even on his team.

[01:42:15] Yeah. Yeah.

[01:42:16] You know what I mean? But like you want to be.

[01:42:18] Now you're making me want to see even more of his content. I got to check it out.

[01:42:21] Well, that's the thing that I think about a lot is, uh, do you know Sahil Bloom?

[01:42:24] Yeah.

[01:42:25] I had him on my podcast recently and we were talking about how people who play sports have, uh,

[01:42:32] have a little bit of a, like a better team mentality. Not everyone, but, but a lot of them do. They know

[01:42:40] how to operate in teams outside of the sports that they play. And I was thinking about that and I'm

[01:42:45] like, man, this whole like team community thing, there must be some kind of link. And also I think

[01:42:52] about like, look, I am all for going to these retreats and I've paid thousands of dollars to

[01:42:59] go to lots of these. It's not always within people's financial ability.

[01:43:05] Yeah, totally. I mean, I go to the free ones and we don't have to pay.

[01:43:09] Oh really? Wait, where are these free ones?

[01:43:12] They're all over the world. There's like 15 centers around the United States. I love going there

[01:43:18] because it's the only place that I go to where money isn't involved. So those centers are all

[01:43:25] built off of donations and you can give a donation after you finish one course.

[01:43:31] What is, what, what is this one called?

[01:43:33] It's called Vipassana and it's taught by Goenka. Um, but what's cool is like you can go and do

[01:43:41] the courses and you, but there at the end, there's not even a suggested donation. It's not like,

[01:43:47] you know, if you're going to donate, you can give a dollar, you can give it. I have given a dollar

[01:43:50] like back when I was 24, 25 and I had nothing. I like give 20 bucks cause that's all I had.

[01:43:56] And, and other times I've walked out of there having given nothing because I didn't have anything

[01:44:01] and nobody batted an eye. Nobody was even keeping track of who gives what, right? Like they're,

[01:44:05] they're, um, they will give you like a, a tax receipt, right? If you do give a donation,

[01:44:11] but they're not like, Oh, this person who signed up for the course didn't give anything.

[01:44:15] Like they don't care. It's you're, they're literally just there to serve you. They want

[01:44:19] you to be happy. They teach you this technique and then you're on your way. Pretty wild.

[01:44:24] I love that. You know what it reminds me of? Um, AA or like any of those programs. Yeah.

[01:44:30] Um, by the way, I have a lot of friends that are either in AA or like Al-Anon or some form of that.

[01:44:37] And I can't tell you how many times they've taught me things that they've learned in those

[01:44:41] programs that have blown my mind and like altered just the way that I think my relationships. And

[01:44:48] it's always so positive. And then there are people, cause when I, I, I tweet a lot about like the,

[01:44:55] the things that I talk about usually end up online and I taught and I tweeted something like that. And a

[01:45:00] few people were like, well, I don't like that AA is so religion focused. And I'm just like,

[01:45:06] you know, if someone can go there, have an open mind and just say, okay, well, I don't,

[01:45:11] I don't need to focus on the religion stuff, but I can take the lessons. Yeah. Then they're winning

[01:45:17] because that's also free. Yeah. That's why the tolerance thing is so ingrained in my, like,

[01:45:22] I want to teach tolerance so badly because I see the ways that not having tolerance is affecting

[01:45:27] everyone. Totally. So negatively. Totally. Yeah. I think it's really hard. That's, it's funny though,

[01:45:33] but you can put anything up there. You could put like anything on Twitter or someone, someone's

[01:45:38] going to be like, nope. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Don't like that. Yeah. Like I just saved a hundred cats

[01:45:44] and people are like, why? You know, they could, Oh my God. Did you see the reactions? Yeah. Did you

[01:45:48] see the reactions to Mr. Beast? Heck yeah. He's like curing blindness. And people are losing it.

[01:45:55] He's so selfish. How? Yeah. How? I don't know. I, that was like, I watched all that go down and I

[01:46:02] was like, just so blown away. I don't know. The people are people. Yeah. People be peopling. Yeah.

[01:46:10] They be peopling. Well, thank you so much for coming on this show. I love this. I love this conversation.

[01:46:16] Hopefully you come back on. Oh, if you'll have me for sure. Oh my God. Yeah. A hundred percent.