Discovering Gaga: The Wendy Starland Story

[00:00:00] The following is a Beyond With Nicole interview featuring Wendy Starland. Wendy and I discuss her career, what it was like to discover and develop Lady Gaga, the music industry, and Los Angeles culture. She also shares her insights on the emerging generation of singers and content creators

[00:00:23] as a songwriter and producer on Band-Aid, the music competition show on AXS. I had a nanny growing up, a babysitter named Rosetta Atkins who was a gospel singer from down south. And so I had been singing and songwriting my whole life.

[00:00:53] And so by the time I was 14, me and my friends who grew up in New York City were going out to all the nightclubs, 14 years old with our fake IDs. Classic. Totally. And there is a performer named Macy O'Parker that when James Brown went single as a solo

[00:01:16] artist, his band stayed intact and Macy O'Parker who is the saxophonist became the lead singer sounds just like James Brown and still had the best rhythm section in music history. And so my friends were like, okay, let's go.

[00:01:33] I got my way past the bouncer somehow and packed like sardines. You know, it was general admission. I got my, shimmied my way up to front row center. It was about a thousand people packed into a room that had no business having over 500, 600 tops.

[00:01:53] And Macy O' just kept looking at me down in the audience there. And I was like, okay. So he pulls me up on stage and at first I'm just like a little kid. I'm dancing around. I'm like, oh, this is fun, whatever. Go back down.

[00:02:09] My friends are all high fiving me. Couple songs later, he keeps looking at me. He's like, he's like looking at me like a piece of steak. Okay. I had a lot of eyeliner on at the time. I looked older.

[00:02:21] And so it was like the universe was saying, Wendy, you did it wrong the first time. I'm giving you another shot. And Macy O' Parker pulls me back up on stage again for the second time.

[00:02:34] By the way, I had never been pulled up on stage before or since then. I get back up and since I'd been writing my whole life and singing my whole life, I want to hear music I love. I just automatically start singing to myself.

[00:02:49] So I do and Tyrone the trombone player next to me. He hears me singing. He taps his microphone in front of me and to prove to Macy O' that I could sing, I start harmonizing with him. He's like, oh, is that the girl knows how to sing?

[00:03:06] It's a huge band. I mean, I don't know, maybe like 10, 12 people. I don't know. A very big band, lots of horns. He sends everyone off the stage except for the bass player.

[00:03:18] Macy O who typically plays the sax goes back on the drums, who even knew he could play drums starts kicking this funky beat. The bass player is there. And I start wailing on his stage for 20 minutes just improvise, scatted and the crowd goes bonkers.

[00:03:42] And at the end, and this was my first performance ever. And at the end, he's like, what's your name, Don? I'm like, Wendy Starlin. The crowd's going wild. And then you hear the bass player saying to the microphone, he goes, everybody shut up.

[00:03:59] We're like, who shuts up a cheering crowd? Like that doesn't happen. And I didn't realize it at the time, but he had taken a string off his bass guitar. He coiled it up into a little coil.

[00:04:14] He got down on one knee and he took my hand as if he were proposing to me. And he said into the microphone, Wendy, I don't know what you're doing at this club. You're way too young to be here. He's like, but you have a gift from God.

[00:04:34] And if you do not devote the rest of your life to using this gift, you're going to rob the rest of us of something so special. And he put the bass string around my ring finger and he said, from this day forward, you are married to music.

[00:04:51] I literally got the chills right now. Yeah. So did I. And it was so intense and everyone's like, oh my God, I go back down. I didn't even want to go backstage. You know what I mean? Because I just wanted this to be the sacred experience.

[00:05:07] And from that day forward, I was married to music. It was literally written up in all the newspapers the next day. They started getting these want ads. Little kid who got up during Maceo Parker's second set. Will you please be the lead singer of our band?

[00:05:25] And I put a band together and since all of the big night clubs in New York had already heard this story from reading it in the papers, I got booked in all the best clubs in New York and that was the start. Oh my God, Wendy.

[00:05:40] Isn't it crazy when someone says something like that to you? How much of an impression it leaves in your mind to tell you something like this is your gift, you're married to music. It makes you have that belief in yourself. It really does.

[00:05:59] And on top of it, I had been studying painting my whole life. My grandfather was a painter. My uncle was a rock star. I've been to your exhibit, is it called that? Yeah, my exhibit. Yeah, exhibit. Yeah, at Winslay Even Gallery. That was so incredible.

[00:06:20] But yeah, I mean, it's one of those things where my grandfather, who was my idol, had a very set course for me and he said, Wendy, you're wasting all your talent on this music business because he saw my uncle who lived this party life and he

[00:06:36] was a child of the 60s and 70s or whatever. So he definitely had a different approach to music than I did because they were having sit-ins to get coed dorms in college. It wasn't exactly the same era, but I did follow that passion and it became my life.

[00:07:01] And I was lucky enough where during school, Gary Lyons, who was a huge producer for the Rolling Stones, Aerosmith, did some iconic records. He's a British producer and he just said to me, Wendy, I think you are the next big thing.

[00:07:26] For free, I am going to produce you in the studio. And so I'd been doing it my whole life and I started to get very strong opinions about music and what sounds good. It really started to sound right or wrong, which is not a characteristic

[00:07:49] that I developed in any other area of my life. I'm sort of a flexible person. Go with the flow. You're easygoing. Not in music. It is where my hard ass comes out. I don't know if I'm allowed to say that. Yeah, you are.

[00:08:04] You're allowed to say whatever you want. OK. I was a little worried about that. Yeah, it really sounds 90%, 95% of the time, it sounds right or wrong. There are a couple of options of what are better choices.

[00:08:21] But when I was working with Gary Lyons, he started to do a few creative moves on the production that I disagreed with. And so I saved up. I bought my own equipment. I taught myself how to use it. And I started producing records.

[00:08:42] And at first it was just for myself and to figure it out. And then started with a couple of friends. And then one day my equipment broke down. And this guy who came over to fix it was this guy named Dane Jemental.

[00:08:59] And he had long dreadlocks as long as my hair. I mean, just down to his waist. And he said to me, that's you. He's like, this sounds nothing like your speaking voice. And I said, yeah. And he goes, wow, that's really good.

[00:09:14] Have you ever sung on anybody else's record before? And I said, no, I haven't. And he said, OK. He goes, would you like to? I said, absolutely. He said, this Saturday meet me at the pier. We're going to take the ferry over to Staten Island.

[00:09:33] Now I was born and raised in New York City, never been to Staten Island my whole life. This is my first experience. Hop on the ferry with him. And he takes me to the studio. Studio is a small brick building. And door opens. Knock on the door.

[00:09:55] Door opens. And a huge plume of smoke starts coming out of the studio. It's like there was a fire in there. I'd never seen anything like it before. And it's very heavy. And who opens the door? But one of the members of the Wu-Tang Clan. Oh my god.

[00:10:17] And they are, they're packing heat. They're drinking their smoke and their whatever. So I walk inside. This is, I'm probably at this point, 18 years old. And they'd, I mean, this was like nothing they'd ever seen. They were not expecting me to come to the door.

[00:10:39] And so they're like, danger, will you bring this little chick here? And he's like, yeah, she can sing. And they're like, all right, all right. Play, play the song. So they play the song. And they're like, yo, sing this shit. I'm like, I'll sing it, but it sucks.

[00:11:00] And they're like, what? They could not believe it. I had so much attitude about music especially at that time. And then I'm like, yeah, you got two chord changes. You have no room for there to be any kind of melodies.

[00:11:15] There's no tension chord for the chorus to hit hard, you know? And I understood music and structure very well by the time I was 18 years old. And they're like, you think you could do better? I'm like, a second grader could do better than this.

[00:11:33] And so of course, DangerMental, who I just met, is like, what the hell are you saying to these guys? I'm going to kill you. But didn't they kind of like it? Well, not at first. It was very, they're very intimidating. And there's so many of them.

[00:11:47] And so they're like, all right, go into the back room, you know, rewrite it. So I go to the back room, I rewrite the song, I read the chord changes, the structure of the song, the melody, everything. Of course I kept their raps the same.

[00:12:01] And, you know, I redo it with DangerMental. He's like, I'm ready to kill you. And, you know, maybe 30 minutes later, 40 minutes later, presses play. And they're like, oh my God, Wendy's E-100. So E-100 is the huge pop radio station in New York City. So they're like, Wendy's E-100.

[00:12:28] And they had these huge gold chains and they put them over my head. And I was inducted into the Wu-Tang Clan. Oh my God, what a story. Well, the craziest part was after I left this session, and actually it wasn't that session, but it was several later.

[00:12:45] I ended up doing 30 songs with the Wu-Tang Clan. Oh my God. And I was riding up the FDR highway in New York City and I get a call from my mom, myself on, hi Wendy, you know. You know, Wendy, are you working with these Wu-Tangs? These Wu-Tang Clans.

[00:13:07] You know, my mom is so cute. And I'm like, yeah, she's like, well, I'm sitting here reading in the New York Post. Apparently they, they're a website designer. They couldn't log on for two and a half hours to their website. And now he happens to be hospitalized.

[00:13:31] And I think that this could be a dangerous situation for you, Wendy. And I don't want you to work with them. And I'm like, mom, they're so nice to me. That would never happen to me, don't worry. She's like, Wendy, I forbid you to work with them.

[00:13:46] On call waiting, RZA's brother, ninth prince is calling me on the phone, part of the Wu-Tang Clan. He's like, yo, Wendy. I'm like, yeah, what's going on? Everything cool with the tracks? We just laid down. He's like, do you wanna be in a band with me?

[00:14:03] I'm like, what? What are you talking about? He's like, yeah, why aren't, you know, let's be in a band together. I'm like, and I'm thinking of myself. Oh my God, I may need some protection. So DangerMental who was the producer brought me in.

[00:14:19] I said only if danger could be a part of it too. And he's like, okay. So we had this band. What was it called? ESP. And we ended up opening for Sean Paul. And it was this, probably six, 7,000 people in the crowd.

[00:14:38] And we write all these songs and walk out on stage. And it was a huge stage like a tee that was a runway into the audience. And so I'm bop it. I got one of the Wu-Tang Clan guys on one side. I got DangerMental on the other side.

[00:14:57] And I am walking out on this stage, hopping along in my merry way. And all of a sudden the entire crowd, I hadn't even opened my mouth yet. The entire crowd is booing me. Boo, boo, boo. Wait, why though? Well, you know, this wasn't exactly the audience.

[00:15:17] You know, they weren't used to seeing this combination and booing me, boo, boo, boo. And then I, again, at such a young age, I was so cocky at the time. I thought it was like a Bruce Springsteen concert that were like, Bruce, Bruce.

[00:15:35] I'm like, it didn't even occur to me that they were booing you. Exactly. So I just keep going. And then I start singing. And you know, I changed my voice for different contexts of different songs. I write in all different styles. I have over 2,000 recorded songs. Wow.

[00:15:53] So in various different genres because of situations like this. And so I end up singing and doing a great job. At the end, I hit this like Mariah Carey note at the end and they're like, ah, and then standing ovation. Clappy was so amazing.

[00:16:12] From that, we get a huge offer from Sony. They offer us, you know, a record deal over like $1.2 million. Wow. So that week, later that week, we're all supposed to meet up at my house first to go into the office to sign this huge record deal.

[00:16:33] I'm like, oh my God, where is 9th Prince? I can't find him anywhere. Is he or like somebody, you know, call his mom. We call his mom. His mom has no clue where he is. Somebody calls girlfriend, call his girlfriend. 9th Prince is in jail. Oh my God.

[00:16:54] Oh my God. What happened? Apparently, you know, there was some car stolen or something along those lines, but he was gonna be in jail for the next two and a half years and that was the end of that. No record deal.

[00:17:13] Well, without one of the members of the Wu-Tang Clan, that was a pretty big part of it. So you just had to cancel the meeting? So that was the end of that one. So then what happened next? Well, what happened next is I started writing

[00:17:28] with a guy named Silvio Vivenkoz who was from France, great songwriter and record producer and we started working on a totally different genre of music. I'd say it was in the vein of Sting, Peter Gabriel Seal and I got so into it.

[00:17:48] I learned all about jazz and time signatures and the level of musicians that I was working with was just at the highest level. Oz Noy, who I'm still in touch with, Andy Galore, Rodney Howard, amazing, amazing musicians and a lot of opportunities came there

[00:18:10] and so it turns out my space started to become the big thing in like 2005, 2006 maybe and for musicians it was the absolute best because you could get people, you get a huge audience who were totally into music solely. It wasn't about what did I do on Friday?

[00:18:33] You know, it was much more about the music and so there were these charts and I went to number one on the MySpace music charts eight times and so I started getting all of this attention in these DMs and it would take me weeks

[00:18:52] to get through these DMs and so first there was an agent who said, Wendy, I would love to shop you at Me Dem which is the biggest music conference in France for a record deal there. I said okay, let's do it. He shopped me.

[00:19:11] My manager and my lawyer here in New York City at the time was like, oh that is such a waste of time. What are you doing? And Wendy, why are you writing all these songs with Spanish guitar? No radio station's gonna play that. That's absolutely ridiculous.

[00:19:26] Well, not only did I say that's what I'm passionate about. That's what's authentic to me at this moment in time but it ended up getting two record deals from Sony and Universal. I took the one with Universal. I ended up, besides having all my own music,

[00:19:47] it was also on compilations with Nora Jones who had sold 25 million records at the time. I ended up touring all throughout Europe and that song ended up being honored by the Songwriters Hall of Fame. Oh wow, is that one? Yeah, so it's really one of those things

[00:20:05] where you've gotta trust your instinct in spite of what any person is gonna tell you. If you know your craft and you know yourself and that's your authentic voice, the audience is gonna feel it. Yeah, that's really good advice. That is really good advice

[00:20:22] because people give you input all the time. All the time. And those two people, they had never written a song before. They're trying to tell you? Well, the fact is that you have to take constructive criticism but you have to take constructive criticism from people

[00:20:42] who are excel in the area in which you're asking for advice. So, if you're looking for fashion advice, probably don't wanna get it from a clown. You know what I mean? If you're looking for music advice on songwriting and what's gonna work as a songwriter,

[00:21:06] you gotta get it from another songwriter. Obviously, there are certain structural norms for songwriting but by that time I was in my 20s and I had all of that down pat. So it turned out to be one of the greatest

[00:21:24] periods of my life because I toured in Europe for a few years and when I got back, everyone had heard, oh my God, this 25 year old girl or whatever it was. However old I was, got back and every record producer had heard about it.

[00:21:46] They're like, you know, because typically when you're honored by the songwriter's hall of fame, you're later in life, you're a later part of your career. And so all these producers reached out to me and saying will you be my in-house songwriter?

[00:22:04] And I ended up going with a guy who had a great track record working with Beyonce, Jessica Simpson, Whitney Houston, Britney Spears, Pink. Lots of different J-Lo, tons of different artists and it was great because the first day we met

[00:22:28] we wrote six songs together and it was just like instant and after a while, I felt like we were doing a lot of things on his time schedule and his way and I said I really need to start putting my name on everything that's going out there.

[00:22:52] And he said okay, find me a girl under the age of 25 who could be the female equivalent to the lead singer, The Strokes. The Strokes were huge and he goes, edgy and bold, you can't take your eyes off her. She doesn't have to be,

[00:23:08] does she have to be super gorgeous? Doesn't have to be super gorgeous. Just has to have that star quality, that it factor that you cannot take your eyes off of. Just doesn't even have to necessarily be that talented. You just have to be engrossed when you watch her.

[00:23:23] And so I had gone over to over 80 shows at the time. And definitely over 50, between probably a 50 or 80 shows. And I found lots of girls, but they didn't exactly have that characteristic. They weren't the right fit. And at the time I'd been looking for a publishing deal

[00:23:51] because like I said, I have thousands of recorded songs and a publishing deal for those who don't know what that is is a record deal for a songwriter. But basically they give you an upfront fee for the rights to publish your songs

[00:24:07] on either your own record, other people's albums, movies, television, licensing deals. And they make it back through the royalties. Anyway, who was the assistant to the CEO was a girl named Stephanie Germanata. It was Viacom's publishing company called Famous Music Publishing.

[00:24:30] And they were interested in giving me a publishing deal. And so every time I'd passed by this girl's desk, my music was coming out of the speakers from my space. And she's like, oh my God, Wendy, so nice to meet you. I listen to you all the time.

[00:24:45] Great, thank you. And a few months later, I get a tap on the shoulder during soundcheck. I was performing at a place called The Cutting Room. And she comes up to me and she says, Wendy, I don't know if you remember me. I'm Stephanie Germanata.

[00:25:04] Listen to you all the time. I would love it if you came to my show. And we're on the same bill. And I said, of course. And I checked her out. And she had this fierce confidence, a huge presence of like a lion.

[00:25:25] It was a room full maybe 350 people. It was like she was singing in the back of the stadium. And the band around her were these college kids who they just didn't know what it takes. They were just very amateur type of musicians.

[00:25:46] The songwriter wasn't there, the image wasn't there. All the things around her were not there, but she was great. And so I took her by the arm afterwards. And I said, you've got huge elephant balls. That was the first thing I said to her. And she's like what?

[00:26:05] And I said, you got huge balls. You've got great charisma, incredible talent, incredible voice. How attached are you to this band? She said, well my boyfriend's in the band. I said, exactly how attached are you to this band? She's like, why do you ask?

[00:26:23] I said because I've been working with a producer. We've been developing material over this last year or so. And I've been searching for an artist. And I think you could be that artist that we work with. And she's like, okay. So we walk outside, I called the producer

[00:26:48] that I was working with. And she's like play my songs on the website. She plays the songs. And he's like, oh my God, this is terrible. I'm like stop playing the songs on the website. We have songs. We've been working on songs. We've got the stuff.

[00:27:06] I'm telling you, this girl's a star. And months later, we turned Stephanie Germanata into Lady Gaga. Oh my God. The biggest star in the world, iconic. And it was pretty incredible because my production partner at the time gave me a lot of resistance.

[00:27:30] There were months of him saying, no, no, this girl doesn't have it. I was like, you are so used to working with Beyonce and all of these artists who have these huge budgets behind them, Jessica Simpson, all these girls who have millions of dollars,

[00:27:44] you forget what it's like before the budget happens, before the record deal. When the sound man's in the back, flirting with some chick and not paying attention to what's happening. And I just told him, this is a superstar and we've got to pay attention to this.

[00:28:03] And luckily I was right. Yeah, you were 100% right. I actually saw that video of her saying that you discovered her. Yeah, at the Songwriters Hall of Fame. Yeah. That was very sweet for her to acknowledge that at the Songwriters Hall of Fame podium, which was amazing.

[00:28:25] It was very, very special. What was it like talking to her as this was happening? Because I feel like being in that position where someone discovers you and then the journey forward it's probably overwhelming because you don't know if you're gonna make it or if someone is just,

[00:28:50] if they're right about you or wrong about you and if you're really gonna get that big and then she ends up being the biggest star in the world. So what was it like for her? And there were a lot of ups and downs.

[00:29:02] I mean this was over years and you are placing a bet with your time, money, energy, effort on somebody else's behalf. So you have got to really believe before you make that investment. We through working together at the time we were absolutely best friends.

[00:29:31] You could not see us apart. Christmas with her family, New Years with me and my friends. It was just absolutely, after we would spend the whole day together working she would, we'd go out at night. We would go have fun and drinks.

[00:29:52] And so it was a very special, very deep relationship. And obviously the whole development of what was happening, it was so radically different than the music that I saw her performing on the night that I discovered her, that it was, I mean it was polar opposite.

[00:30:15] So it took a lot of trust and faith on both sides because she wasn't, that wasn't her, that's not what she naturally gravitated towards at first and now she obviously loves it. Yeah, oh my God. I mean that's a crazy person to discover Wendy. Right?

[00:30:35] I mean I'm extremely lucky and fortunate that it all worked out. You know, in life you have trial and error. You do not know. I just say that you've got to really trust yourself. Trust your gut, trust your instinct. And you don't always have

[00:30:58] these things to rely on. You don't always have money. You don't always have a huge track record behind you, especially if you're young. You have to really just believe and authentically give, do the absolute best. You know, Chris Voss, my boyfriend always says to me he's like,

[00:31:19] how you do something is how you do everything. Yeah, how you do one thing is how you do everything. That's right. So unfortunately that phrase lingers in my head constantly and I am quite a perfectionist when it comes to many things.

[00:31:38] So I want to, if I'm producing an artist, I wanna do it at the highest level. And if I am, whatever it is I'm doing, I am going to try my absolute best to give it my all and which sort of takes me to what I'm doing now

[00:31:58] with this television show. Oh yeah, I was gonna get to that. Tell me about that and then I'll go back because I do have other questions. Are you sure? Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, cause I wanna, I do wanna hear about what you're doing.

[00:32:11] You're on a TV show now and you have been assigned a band to help and yeah, writing and producing for the band. So tell me, yeah, tell us more about the show and what it's called and where we can see it. Great, yeah, it's called Banded.

[00:32:30] You can see it on Axis TV and it is an awesome, awesome show. Someone could be a great singer, but to be a great artist, how it is in the music industry, you need original material and songwriting is the hardest part.

[00:32:47] You can give the best singer on the planet, you know, Whitney Houston, God rest her soul. One of the greatest of all times, if you give her a mediocre song, it does not matter how great the voice is. The song comes first, the song always wins

[00:33:02] and so they brought 25 musicians, of the best musicians from all different parts of the United States, handpicked them and brought them to Nashville. All different genres of music. So each of them were paired into five different bands and then were each assigned a songwriter-producer mentor

[00:33:26] who was responsible for the songwriting, the production, the image, the stage show, everything that it takes to make a great band. So basically I had a lot of experience for that with Lady Gaga and others and including my own career as a singer and performer.

[00:33:50] So I really got into the trenches. I was assigned this band, two were country artists. The other two were punk rockers and one was a straight ahead rock and roller. So they could not have been more different stylistically and I had to come up with a sound

[00:34:11] that they could all get behind. How long did that take? Well, I had about a week to do it because I literally had to write a song with them every week and then they had to compete against the other bands with that song at the Nashville Municipal Auditorium

[00:34:32] which is a 10,000 seat arena in front of the three judges who were DJ Swivel who had done incredible work with Beyonce and the chain smokers and Jay-Z. I mean, legendary guys who really understand songwriting and production you know, Mark Shulman who played drums with Cher

[00:35:05] and Velvet Revolver and Pink for many years and Stevie Nicks. I mean, legendary guys, another artist, Diara who is incredible as millions of followers toured in arenas all around the world. And so it's not like you are performing in front of Heidi Klum for example

[00:35:31] who is gorgeous and could tell you everything about modeling but may not be able to tell you everything about music. These guys can give real constructive criticism based on the songs, based on the performance, based on the execution of the concept

[00:35:49] and luckily my band has been winning week after week. Oh, you're winning Wendy? Well right now, we're doing very well. Wow! Very excited and I mean, I'm in it with them and the band is so cute and sweet they named themselves Starland after me.

[00:36:11] No, they named themselves after you. Yes, I was so touched, you have no idea. They're so awesome. I love that. And so it's this sort of rock sound that's very, it's huge. These huge choruses, they're just incredible. Jacqueline Kenyon is the lead singer,

[00:36:36] Robert Mandoka, a guitarist along with Will Turry and there's Sergio Canada, Molly Rose. It's truly an incredible group of people who get along so beautifully. I just could not believe how fortunate we were and that wasn't necessarily the case with all the other bands,

[00:37:05] but it was the right combination of talent, personalities, drive, everything. Probably also leadership on your part. Thanks for saying that, thank you. I tried my best. How you do something is how you do everything. Oh, I totally agree. I totally agree with that.

[00:37:24] You're listening to Beyond With Nicole hosted by yours truly, Nicole Benham. Make sure to subscribe and follow along on whatever audio platform you're tuning in on. I wanna go back to being an artist in this day and age because it has evolved so much

[00:37:44] and when you're an artist, it's basically all of the suits eating off of you. That's how it's been described to me by everybody. So what are some things you would tell someone? And by the way, I don't think people understand

[00:38:02] how many people are out there trying to become artists. Oh, it's more than ever. Forget, okay, think about all of these shows. American Idol, The Voice, Your Show, a million of them. Yes. In every country, everywhere. And then there are the people who didn't even get

[00:38:26] onto those shows that are still trying. And they have no idea how complicated this process is and what it's like to have a manager and the production company and the label and the this and the that. What is the process like?

[00:38:42] And if you had someone sitting in front of you, let's say it was the next lady, Gaga. What would you tell them? Well, first of all, as to your point, what most people don't know, even several record label executives that I've spoken to

[00:39:02] are not aware that a Spotify stream is, you receive 0.004th of a penny per stream. 0.004th of a penny. Now I just want you to really think about that. I mean, I just saw this incredible thing. I believe it was on Netflix. It's called The Playlist

[00:39:36] where the artist was hypothetically on the show suing Spotify at the end because she had 300,000 plays a month, which was equivalent to $12. Oh my God. So when I say that it's unfair, it's no exaggeration. It is truly worse than it's ever been. On top of that,

[00:40:04] this is coupled with the fact that technology has caught up. So there used to be this filtering system because to get into a studio, it probably around $1,000 a day to get into the studio. And you'd need the record label to be able to pay for it.

[00:40:21] Now people can produce records off of their laptops. And so there isn't this gatekeeper in terms of production. And so what we see happening is that a lot of people are learning the technical skills of production without learning the technical skills of songwriting,

[00:40:43] which are two totally different mediums. To understand songwriting in a deep and meaningful way is very different. With production you can make everything sound shiny with bells and whistles. And so for lack of a better word, you can polish a turd.

[00:41:03] You're not learning what is going to have 30,000 people singing back a chorus to you on stage. And luckily I grew up in the generation where we learned songwriting before production. And so I would tell a new artist, the first thing you gotta learn

[00:41:23] is learn how to write a song. Learn about melody. Understand the difference between songwriting and production. Pick a song apart. You know when I'm working with an artist, the first thing I do always is say, okay, sing for me. Say let's sing in your high register,

[00:41:42] let's sing in your low register or your mids. What are the defining characteristics of your voice? If you have a raspy, growly voice, we are gonna write songs around that so you can show off. If you have a great range, we are gonna write sky high choruses

[00:42:02] so that you can show off. If you have a specific way of pronouncing your vowels, we are gonna put that on the end of every lyric, you know, sentence of each lyric so that you can show off at the end of each line.

[00:42:16] And custom making songs is the exact same thing that you need to do to really let an artist shine. It's like a girl, if you've got big hips and a great rack then push, where push a bra on an A-line skirt. You've got to look at your subject

[00:42:37] and custom fit it to them. Then on top of it, you have to think about the production. Okay, how do you wanna feel? I'll tell, give me five, five, 10 songs that you wish you wrote, that you wish were on your album, famous songs.

[00:42:56] And then I'll make them start thinking like a producer. Okay, what do you feel from this song? What are the exact parts? They'll be like, okay, well, I like the strings in this chorus. What about the strings do you like? It makes me feel like I can fly.

[00:43:14] Okay, then these types of strings are the kinds that we are going to put in our totally different song with a totally different chorus that gives you that flying feeling. What are the parts of the verse you like? I like these thumping drums

[00:43:30] so that I can really feel it in my belly, okay? Then we're gonna use that EQ and sound so that you feel it in your gut up in the club or wherever you are. And so it's a powerful process. I'd also tell artists that you have

[00:43:48] to truly believe in yourself. It is just, if you don't believe you are not gonna garner the help around you that is required to get to the next level and then the next and the next. It takes a village and nobody does it alone.

[00:44:08] Nobody, no matter who they are, no matter how talented they are, they need a team behind them to get them there and it's a huge, huge job. I think that is such a profound thing that you just said nobody does it alone. I can't do this podcast alone.

[00:44:26] I can't do anything alone. Got a great team around you. Yeah, got a great team around me. Yeah, and so I'm very lucky and people forget that a lot. But you look at an artist and everything that is involved in creating what they're doing. Tons. It's crazy.

[00:44:47] Tons of steps and then a lot of luck. The universe I truly believe has a plan for you. What is supposed to happen in your life? And it's not meant for everybody, it's meant for some. I have a question actually on that. So there's this Joe Rogan clip

[00:45:07] where he talks about people who want to be famous. And he says that a lot of the time it's because they had this void in their childhood where they felt like a nothing person and they wanna be on that stage

[00:45:25] with the light shining on them and everybody cheering and that is what validates them and makes them fill that void. Absolutely. And so when someone comes to you and wants to be an artist, does it ever concern you that they just want the fame

[00:45:47] and also do you think that's a bad thing? Most people want attention of some sort, somewhat more than others. What it takes to be a front man for example of a band, a solo artist, it takes a lot of time, some level of uber confidence,

[00:46:11] uber at sometimes not always but sometimes some narcissism, some level of overcompensation for this void that you're talking about. And when that happens, let this is a great creative outlet for them to do it. At least they're not in the back alley

[00:46:36] with a needle in their arm or something terrible. And for the ones that are, I mean hopefully they get over that but I certainly have never had that experience dealing with artists like that because I'm not gonna spend, invest my time and effort and energy into somebody

[00:46:54] who's not invested in themselves. And so I feel like most people overcompensate in some way for whatever they lacked in childhood. Whether it be attention, I know that I'm friends with some famous comedians who really had parents who sort of semi-ignored them.

[00:47:20] I've noticed that with a lot of comedians, there's a lot of trauma. Yeah and they're trying to make life funny, make it light and then they're able to effortlessly do it to crowds of people. And I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing.

[00:47:37] I think that it's a very cathartic experience for them and it comes from a very real place. Yeah, beautifully put. Beautifully put. Let's talk about Chris Voss for a second. Okay. Because that's how we met. That is how we met. Chris is my mentor

[00:47:57] and he met you, I think like a few. It's about two and a half years ago. Really? So then him and I have known each other for like three years or something. But it's crazy because I hosted his show on Clubhouse every week and the guy gets attention

[00:48:23] from girls. I know. I'm sure the same way you get attention. Thank you. It's a thing and he had never, he just was never interested in anyone until finally I was on the phone with him and he was just so excited to go see you

[00:48:42] for the first date, I remember this. And I was like, finally this man is excited about somebody because there's always people trying to hook him up and he would show me and I'm like, well how do you feel about this one? And he's just like, nah.

[00:48:56] Finally, finally there's someone and it turned out working out, which is great for me too. Yeah. I'm so glad we became friends. I'm so glad, I'm so glad but the way he talks about you and the things that you've done, it's like that quote that you mentioned.

[00:49:18] The way you do one thing is the way you do everything. And you are very perfectionist because even the birthday gifts, every year he tells me what the gift is and it just blows my mind and I actually did an interview with Robert Green

[00:49:40] who was the author of 40 Laws of Power and Mastery and the Art of Seduction and all these books. And he told me if, he told me the best thing to pay attention to when you're getting to know someone in a relationship

[00:49:58] and how to determine whether they're right for you is pay attention to their gifts because anybody can go buy a rose or a diamond or any of the generic things that the world tells you to buy that are expensive or whatever the metric is.

[00:50:16] But the people that pay attention to the things that you like and the books that you read and the movies that you watch and the music that you listen to, these are the people to keep in your life. When they give gifts to you based on those things,

[00:50:31] that's something to pay attention to and I'll never forget the first birthday that you guys spent together. Chris's favorite podcaster, Andrew Huberman. Wendy, what did you do? You tracked the man down and you brought him to brunch. I'm like, what's that?

[00:50:51] Yes, I mean Andrew Huberman is so lovely. He's so wonderful and so brilliant. And Chris just, he would always bring up Andrew Huberman in different talks, keynote speeches. He would send me podcasts. Yeah, it would always just come up. He loves Andrew Huberman.

[00:51:11] And so I said, I've got to get him this as a gift. So I just cold called Andrew Huberman. Wait, but how did you look up the number? I looked on the internet, I started Googling, I found the website. It's like I filled out a contact form

[00:51:29] and I just wrote this little note. And so Andrew Huberman, I said to Chris, okay, let's go to Chaconis for lunch. We're gonna have lunch with a surprise guest. And he's like, okay, which one of your friends are you bringing? I was thinking it's not gonna be,

[00:51:48] I was like, come on, have a little faith. This is gonna be good. He's like, okay. So I was like, just sit with your back towards the door. And I kept waiting for him to come through the door. And, oh, did you fly him out by the way?

[00:52:02] He flew out himself. He's excited to meet Chris too. And honestly, it was so crazy because I'd never been in a situation. I must have seen three or four Andrew Huberman doppelgangers walk through the door. I'm like, does that happen? What is he? Oh my God.

[00:52:24] So I was so freaking out. I was like staring at the Instagram picture. I'm like, don't look at my phone. I'm like trying to make sure. And then he walks through. I'm like, oh my God. Walked through the door.

[00:52:36] I just got up from this and I walked up to him and I just hear Chris behind me and he goes, holy fuck. He's like, I cannot believe this. We get up and Andrew Huberman played it so perfectly. He just walks right up to Chris. They're shaking hands.

[00:52:57] He goes, happy birthday. No. It was so perfect. And then we had the most fascinating, fascinating conversation. I mean, I remember asking him, I said Andrew do you think Karma is real? And he was like looking around because everything is backed by data with him. He's so-

[00:53:18] Yeah, he's the guy. Yeah and he's like, I don't know if there's proof for it but I think so. You know? So I'm a true believer in Karma. Okay, wow. Good to know that Andrew Huberman also believes in Karma with all that data.

[00:53:36] Well, I don't wanna quote him on that. You gathered that he might. But I gathered that he might. Yeah. I mean, you're probably, it's your intuition that gathered that so. Exactly. Probably accurate. So what was the rest of the lunch like? You were just-

[00:53:54] We're just asking lots of questions and Chris was so excited and he's like, Wendy, there is literally no other person on this planet that I would have rather had lunch with. That was just so amazing. And you know, in a relationship you have to really, to your point,

[00:54:14] listening is thoughtfulness. It's one thing to listen and ignore it and be like, how the hell am I gonna get Andrew Huberman to fly in for lunch? But you gotta try and how you do something is how you do everything. So I'm gonna give any kind of relationship

[00:54:31] my absolute best effort. Wendy, I wanna be in a relationship with you. Well, you might have to duke it out with Chris. I'll accept a friendship. It's okay. Perfect. I'll accept a friendship. But yeah, that was the word that Chris used

[00:54:47] to describe you when he was on my podcast. He's like, she's just so thoughtful in everything that she does. And then the other gift, the cold plunge. Yeah. Shout out to cold plunge. Is that the brand? That's the brand. That was another Google experience.

[00:55:04] I was in Nashville filming Bandit, the television show. And I was like, oh my God, I had basically three days off in three months or four months. I mean, it was just insane, the workload, it was nonstop. I was like, I gotta come up

[00:55:21] with something great for his birthday. What am I gonna come up with? And he's so, Chris is so health conscious. He just always wants to be his best, which I so applaud because it takes unbelievable discipline. And he also always mentioned,

[00:55:36] oh, you know, I got into this ice bath and this cold plunge, it was so amazing. It's like, okay, you do that. That's great. And then I Googled cold plunge and I found the best company and who was on the board of cold plunge? Andrew Huberman.

[00:55:55] Oh no, so you had the plug? But no, I didn't need the plug. I didn't even tell Andrew Huberman this, but I was like, if he's on the board, this has gotta be the best one. So that's the one I went with and got him a cold plunge.

[00:56:08] I love it. So what's your favorite thing about dating Chris because he's the FBI negotiator. And I would imagine like, it's crazy, because I know him, I know him personally, but I was terrified of him when we first met. Really? Well, because he's the,

[00:56:26] what do you mean he's the negotiator guy? Like he's... He is. I'm a New Yorker. I just, I don't scare easily when it comes to things like that. I had such an instant connection with him. I mean, our first date was so much fun,

[00:56:48] so much laughing, so much, I mean, it just was an immediate connection. And it's funny because we talked earlier about LA guys and how LA guys are, you know, sometimes a little different than guys other places in the country and sort of harder to date in many respects.

[00:57:13] And here I just was like, I want to bring someone into my life who's a gentleman. I want someone in my life who has a huge sense of purpose. That is probably my number one factor of what I look for in a man.

[00:57:29] If they have a big sense of purpose, they don't rely on you for a sense of purpose. They aren't going to be competitive with you or looking to see who has more success or things like that that I've experienced in the past.

[00:57:45] They're usually gonna have a sense of integrity, which Chris has a tremendous amount of integrity. And they're going to, you're gonna be inspired by them and how they live their life. And I have always said I wanted to live an inspired life, inspired by the food,

[00:58:06] inspired by the conversations, inspired by the places I travel to, inspired by the music, inspired by the art, everything. It's just such a key ingredient to my personal happiness that I need a partner with which I can experience that. I love that.

[00:58:27] I love that and you found it in him and he found it in you. Thank you. What was it like dating before in LA? Because, I mean, it's been, look, it's been a ride for all of it. Every woman that I speak to

[00:58:42] has had more trouble here than anywhere else. Absolutely, absolutely. Not the men I work with. Of course not. Not them. But it's, but you know what though? To be fair, they have a hard time with women from LA too. I believe it.

[00:58:58] It's not one way or the other way. I agree. It's something about the culture here. What do you think it is? I think this city more than any other city in the world has the most beautiful women in particular on the planet.

[00:59:17] It's like the prettiest girl from every city all over the world came to LA to make it. To, you know, most of them did. I'm not saying everyone, but this is a broad generalization. Most of them came here to make it, see themselves on camera,

[00:59:33] see themselves on TV and that comes with a certain set of priorities. You and I were brought up raised with very strong ethics values. It's very, very important. I'm so happy that my experience and family life was so strong in New York

[01:00:00] because, and New York is a tougher place. I mean, you and we learned through adversity and that is the most important trait because life is gonna throw you a bunch of a roller coaster ride and if you don't pick yourself up off the ground when it gets hard,

[01:00:22] you're never gonna get to experience the highs and I'd say the same thing happens in relationships. I mean, our hearts are invested into these men that we're trying with and we're trying to find love. We're trying to find that sense of inspiration and connection

[01:00:42] and this is a time in our lives where we're no longer 18 or 19 or 20. We're at a point in our lives where these choices count. This is who you're gonna spend the most time with for the rest of your life. At the beginning of your life, it's your parents.

[01:01:05] Then in the middle there, it's your friends and then the rest of your life, it's your partner. So it's very important and the people in LA are very, they're into social media, they're into looking good, they're into being healthy, they're into being beautiful or handsome

[01:01:24] and their values aren't all aligned with someone like yourself or myself per se. So I was engaged, I was in an eight year relationship, I dated some people, some of them were pretty great but I definitely wanted to find somebody who had a true sense of purpose

[01:01:51] and I found that out of state. Yeah, I love that. But you did meet up over here. He wasn't living here though. I remember he drove all the way to here to see you. He, yeah, we met in Orange County and it was phenomenal.

[01:02:12] I mean, just we went out to dinner, friend of mine joined. There were some misinformation about Chris Foss on the internet. Oh my God, I remember this. Okay, you thought he was 73 or something. No, no, no, no, I mean it was. And then we weren't sure

[01:02:32] if he was with someone else or something? Well, it said that on the internet that his daughter-in-law was his wife. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't know and it was really concerning and at the time she was working for the company.

[01:02:49] I was like, oh my God, does he have a wife? Is this one of these LA guys? But no, luckily that was not the case and he's so wonderful and so intelligent and I love, I learned from him. We learn from each other because he is hypermasculine.

[01:03:10] I mean, extremely, he is alpha male to his core and I'm hyperfeminine and so there is a lot of polarity that happens and that's a good thing in terms of keeping the sparks alive but in terms of learning a new language

[01:03:30] which is the male language, I mean this is totally new to me. Okay, I wanna ask about this because do you feel like the fact that he's so hypermasculine allows you to be even more feminine? Yes. Okay, because that's the thing about dating guys in LA is that

[01:03:48] like a lot of them don't take charge with things so then we feel like we have to. I don't know if that was your experience too. Right, yeah, Chris took charge with everything. I mean he and listen, this is a man who loves to be the boss.

[01:04:03] He is the boss in every area of his life and he's great at it and it's not always easy for girls when they're dating guys to trust the leadership of the male that they're dating. They need to trust the guys that they're with

[01:04:23] and in LA again with the ethics and morals a lot of times they're looking over your shoulder for the next best thing, then young hot, next hotter, the grass is always greener but luckily Chris has, he's a gentleman, B I think he has enough experience under his belt

[01:04:46] to appreciate what he's got and to appreciate loyalty. I don't know if I ever told you this story. As I was growing on socials and all that I was meeting a lot of very famous notable men and one of them I was sitting down with,

[01:05:13] the advice that he gave me really hurt my feelings and I called Chris about it and I'll never forget what he said to me but the advice, he told me that all the most beautiful women in the world fly into LA as you said

[01:05:33] and he's like, you're not the only one. He said that to me and he goes, if I were you listen to this, he said to me, if I were you I would go to San Francisco, find someone who's wealthy

[01:05:51] but doesn't realize who he is or what he can get, settle down with that guy, have a kid with him and then start your life in LA and I called Chris and I was like, so he's telling me I have to go marry some nerd

[01:06:12] in San Francisco that I'm not attracted to who doesn't realize who he, because that's the thing with me is like you kinda want someone spicy too who has a little bit of an edge, like you have that with him. Oh for sure.

[01:06:23] And so that's why I called Chris because he's committed to you, only has eyes for you but both of you could go go with someone else if you wanted to and I'll never forget Chris told me he's like that's bullshit, I love being committed to Wendy.

[01:06:43] Oh, that's so sweet. But it made me feel so much better because I'm like, I thought that guy was right for a second. Like it's crazy. It's crazy. That is such a reflection on that guy. Yeah. I mean the fact that that guy's priorities

[01:07:01] is purely superficial and he's saying, oh, you know, first of all, you're drop dead gorgeous, you're an 11 out of 10, you're stunning. I love these things. And you're also, you have this charisma, smarts. You're the full package. But the fact that a guy could say something like that

[01:07:21] because his values are, oh, I just care what they look like. Well then, go get yourself an inflatable doll. I mean, you're pathetic to me. So a guy like that is so utterly pathetic. So finding somebody who's substantive, who knows the difference between good and great is everything.

[01:07:49] Yeah. Do you feel like you were in a completely different headspace when you met Chris versus all the other times in your life when you met these other men who kind of didn't measure up? No. I don't, all of this stuff, oh, you've gotta be ready.

[01:08:05] I think that that's total crap. I think everything in your life that is a huge change, a huge shift, I don't know any time in my life that I've been ready for anything. Was I ready to go to college and like have that big,

[01:08:21] you know, shift from home to Cornell? I wasn't ready to leave home. And like, I was so scared and nervous, but I did it. You know, was I ready to sing on stage in front of thousands of people? I wasn't ready, I'll never forget.

[01:08:37] I was singing, I was on tour in Europe and we had this huge, this huge, I don't know if it was a theater. It was sort of the equivalent of Carnegie Hall in New York, but it was in Poland.

[01:08:53] And I went there and you know, when you're on tour, you don't necessarily even look at where the next city is, what you're doing. You're just like, okay, I'm showing up, where are they taking me next? And I remember seeing this place,

[01:09:08] it was the most beautiful place I'd ever seen. Massive, massive place where the symphony performs. And there were pictures of all of the artists who performed there on the wall. So it was like Sting and Barbra Streisand and all of these things. And my bass player walked in,

[01:09:27] he saw me in the bathroom crying. He's like, what is it? This place is bigger than my apartment. My dressing room, this is so incredible. And he's like, you deserve this, you deserve this. And was I ready to walk out on stage and do that?

[01:09:44] No, it shook me to my core, but the universe delivers what you're ready for, whether or not you think that you are ready for it. I wasn't in a different headspace. It was just the universe delivering something to me

[01:09:58] that was special that God knew that I could step up and be the person that I need to be and that he needs to be to coexist in this type of connection. That's nice to hear because I'm sure you've been seeing all this like manifest this

[01:10:19] and be that and do that and you have to be this. And it's just like, I feel like that ideology is like rampant on social media. And I'm sure there are some things that are a little true with some of that, but it's not, you're right,

[01:10:39] it's not always that you're ready. Internally, you may have flipped a switch where you say enough is enough. I'm sick of waiting for somebody to treat me like I'm the priority, not the priority. Like I need to be the priority in this relationship.

[01:11:05] I need to feel like I am important to you. And listen, Chris and I are in a long distance relationship. The guy travels 165 days a year. That is reality. And if you weren't dating an extremely independent person, this probably wouldn't work out. So there are certain factors there,

[01:11:24] but I think you become the person, you have to own the relationship that you want. You have to live that out. And so it's not always easy. Would I prefer if we lived under the same roof and got to see each other even more?

[01:11:46] Yes, but does he prioritize to see me a lot of the time? Yes. And so as long as we prioritize each other, that's what counts. I love that. Relationships are so important in life. And back to your other point of you can't do anything alone.

[01:12:05] What do you feel like some of the most helpful and meaningful relationships have been in your life, including your career? My mother. My mother is definitely, she's my rock. She sees me at my best and my worst. She helps me to believe in myself. The music industry is,

[01:12:37] it's not an easy place especially for women. And the fact that she keeps me very centered, I know you have that kind of relationship with your mom as well. What a love she is, I love her. She loves you too. But it's, I think that is definitely

[01:13:01] a relationship that grounds me, that makes me feel like my life, my journey, my path is important. Regardless of the results, the success, the money, the this, the that. It's not about anyone else's approval. It's not about exterior manifestations of that success.

[01:13:25] It is about you as a person. Who is your heart and soul? Who are you? You're writing your legacy every day. Who are you going to be in the world? What kind of person are you gonna be to get there? Are you gonna take shortcuts?

[01:13:40] Are you gonna be a kind, loyal, wonderful person who helps guide others as well? And I just wanna say that Nicole Benham, you are absolutely that person to so many people in the world. And it is truly an inspiration. I'm so lucky to be your friend.

[01:14:01] Oh my God, I love doing this podcast when people come on and say these things. It's incredible. I mean, you inspire others and you're a thinker. I mean, you definitely give a voice to so many women and young women

[01:14:19] who really need to believe that they could step up, especially, I mean, you're big in the web three space and all these spaces where a lot of, it's heavily male dominated, it seems. And from an outside perspective- Oh, it is, it is.

[01:14:36] When you were saying how hard it is for women in the music industry, I thought to myself, yeah, but you know what? It's all so hard in every other. It is. Yeah. It really is. When women go through, it's crazy, especially the beauty standards,

[01:14:49] especially the, it's crazy how much youth and beauty are put on a pedestal when it's like, it's not the same thing for a man. No, no it is. It's so weird to me. For them, it's like power and status. Doesn't matter how old you are.

[01:15:06] But yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot for women. It is a lot for women, but luckily you're the full package, so. You too, thanks. So there's a question that I ask everyone at the end of this show. Okay. And it's basically a hypothetical scenario

[01:15:26] for deciding which message is the most important to you because we have so many that, you know, we wanna share with the world. You've shared so many already right here. And here's the scenario. So you're nominated for an Oscar, let's say a documentary about music

[01:15:51] and after all the nominees are called, they announce the winner and they say, Wendy Starland. And, and you walk up to the stage and you think everybody that you need to think, your mom, Chris, lady Gaga, me, the Wu-Tang Clan. Exactly. Everybody.

[01:16:18] And then right after you're done thinking everybody, there's about a 45 second to one minute window where you get to say whatever you want. And there will be headlines, take talks, Instagram reels that'll be shared all over. It'll be on YouTube. What are you gonna say in that window?

[01:16:41] It's a great question. I would say you only have one life, one purpose and the universe created you to be uniquely you. Nobody else is quite like you and it is going to take a ton of resilience in order to maintain that special light around you,

[01:17:05] that sense of purpose. And you've got to fight with all of your might to maintain that sense of purity. Fall down seven times, stand up eight. Life is gonna knock you in a whole bunch of ways and you need to find it in yourself

[01:17:21] to have the strength to maintain that purity of spirit, of purpose and be the person that you are meant to be and give that message to the world that you were born to give. Oh my God, so beautiful. I love that.

[01:17:35] Wendy, thank you for coming on the show. Thanks for having me, Nicole. You're the best. You're the best. Thank you for listening to Beyond With Nicole. Catch us on Instagram at beyondwithnacole and don't forget to follow our other Instagram page at beyondtheinterview where we discuss tweets

[01:17:52] on trending insights, perspectives and culturally relevant news.